FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[wally_wabash]

I think you're overcomplicating it.  The interesting question is quite simply this: if Matt Walker had Leipold's dudes in 2014 and Leipold had Walker's dudes in 2014, does Leipold still win by 3?  I say no.  I think if they switched rosters, Walker wins the game. 

Coaches are immensely important.  Don't get me wrong.  But at some point, you've just got to have the dudes.  I'm sure this will draw a snicker or several from this crowd, but some of the best coaching I've seen in the last 15 years out of the NCAC was done by Jeff Ramsey at Oberlin.  He routinely had rosters of under 50.  Oberlin never won a league championship.  Oberlin never won more than 5 games in a season.  But the work Ramsey did with the cards he had to play was superb.  And that's kind of my whole point with the Matt Walker thing.  It's easy to look down your nose at the W/L record there at RF (as Bobo has done), but that ignores an awful lot of important context and short changes a really good coach. 

[emma17]

Wally
I completely get what you're saying and I agree with the concept that some of the greatest coaches don't necessarily win a ton of games.
But I'm not over complicating it as much as you're under complicating it.
Being a great head coach is so much more than the actual act of coaching football players and getting the most out of them.
You'd take Walker to win w UWW's players- as though that team existed in a vacuum. That team existed because of all the pieces put in place previously- and those pieces attracted the "dudes". 
A better question is I'll give Walker UWW's 2014 squad for the entire season. Give LL UWRF's program since, let's say 2011. What are the results of the 2014 season for both?

[wally_wabash]

Yeah, UWW wins.  Jimmies and Joes beat Xs and Os 9/10 times. 

[02 Warhawk]

^^
I'm probably overly biased toward River Falls based on the way they played UWW last year- but I think they will be tough in 2015.
It seems UWL picked it up a bit after the UWW game- playing all teams closely. 
I hope they progress.

Matt Walker is the real deal.  I don't know what went sideways between he and DePauw, but I wasn't super sorry that it did.  DePauw hasn't beaten Wabash since Matt Walker was their head coach- which I don't believe is a coincidence.

Fascinating- the real deal.    I personally would use other words to describe a coach with only 6 wins in 4 seasons (overall .150 win % in RF), but to each his own.

I would agree with Wally. Insert Lance or VK into UWRF, and I don't see them doing a whole lot better with the same resources/players that Matt has.

02- this statement of yours is interesting. I don't know your definition of "a whole lot better"- so I'll refrain from countering your opinion just yet.
Do you feel LL would have produced more wins at all? 

I think he would have won fewer. Seeing as his pedigree was UWW with all the trappings of advantage that program has over other UW schools, I think he would have done marketedly worse when saddled with the disadvantage of UWRF. Across sports we frequently see assistant coaches from successful programs go to unsuccessful programs as a head coach only to flounder. Odds are very good we would see the same in your hypothetical scenario.

It sounds like you're making the argument against Vk and not LL. The jury is still out on VK - can the guy really coach? I think he needs to get out from under daddy's shadow before we will actually know. Watching him the last two years, he appears to be way over his head, has a confused look to him on the sidelines, but that's just my opinion. In your points you said LL would have done marketedly worse than a guy who has won only 6 games in 4 years if he was at poor, little, disadvantaged River Falls? What exactly does marketedly worse actually mean to you? He would've won only 3? Maybe 0-10 4 years running? No one said he would go 60-0 in 4 years with 4 NC. Or even win conference once, but I'd bet anything and everything, he would have found a way to win more than 6 times, easily.  The fact that you think he was born with the Warhawk silver spoon in this mouth, he wouldn't know the first thing about building a program? Or do a worse job than the guy currently at RF has in winning games? I declare your entire premise as a crock of crap.

I'm not sure the point of posting your thoughts with your tone and approach on an opposing conference/team's fan board other than to antagonize. Congrats oz on being that guy.

It's a rare day (although it does happen from time to time - retagent on a good day comes to mind as one) that an opposing fan adds any value when they come on here. It's obvious, oz is never one to buck that trend.

Why do fans of teams that don't have any legitimate indepth understanding or knowledge of our league or UWW come on this site and work so hard to argue against any and all that is WIAC or more specifically UWW? I'm sure it isn't insecurity?....they show a level of self-assuredness that is nearly astronomical.

Do they think they can convince us to denounce our WIAC allegiance or return our Warhawk fan membership credentials or to exhibit more sympathy towards the so-called under privileged? .....No one could be that obtuse.

Do they just like arguing?...hum, that might be it!!

I have to say I am amazed at people like oz.  They will argue any point, whether serious or said in jest or just to get their goat.

So, yeah, let's have some fun!!

Ok, I'll give you that. I shouldn't have grouped VK and LL together in the same coaching tier.

[bulk19]

^^
I'm probably overly biased toward River Falls based on the way they played UWW last year- but I think they will be tough in 2015.
It seems UWL picked it up a bit after the UWW game- playing all teams closely. 
I hope they progress.

Matt Walker is the real deal.  I don't know what went sideways between he and DePauw, but I wasn't super sorry that it did.  DePauw hasn't beaten Wabash since Matt Walker was their head coach- which I don't believe is a coincidence.

Fascinating- the real deal.    I personally would use other words to describe a coach with only 6 wins in 4 seasons (overall .150 win % in RF), but to each his own.

I would agree with Wally. Insert Lance or VK into UWRF, and I don't see them doing a whole lot better with the same resources/players that Matt has.

02- this statement of yours is interesting. I don't know your definition of "a whole lot better"- so I'll refrain from countering your opinion just yet.
Do you feel LL would have produced more wins at all? 

I think he would have won fewer. Seeing as his pedigree was UWW with all the trappings of advantage that program has over other UW schools, I think he would have done marketedly worse when saddled with the disadvantage of UWRF. Across sports we frequently see assistant coaches from successful programs go to unsuccessful programs as a head coach only to flounder. Odds are very good we would see the same in your hypothetical scenario.

It sounds like you're making the argument against Vk and not LL. The jury is still out on VK - can the guy really coach? I think he needs to get out from under daddy's shadow before we will actually know. Watching him the last two years, he appears to be way over his head, has a confused look to him on the sidelines, but that's just my opinion. In your points you said LL would have done marketedly worse than a guy who has won only 6 games in 4 years if he was at poor, little, disadvantaged River Falls? What exactly does marketedly worse actually mean to you? He would've won only 3? Maybe 0-10 4 years running? No one said he would go 60-0 in 4 years with 4 NC. Or even win conference once, but I'd bet anything and everything, he would have found a way to win more than 6 times, easily.  The fact that you think he was born with the Warhawk silver spoon in this mouth, he wouldn't know the first thing about building a program? Or do a worse job than the guy currently at RF has in winning games? I declare your entire premise as a crock of crap.

I'm not sure the point of posting your thoughts with your tone and approach on an opposing conference/team's fan board other than to antagonize. Congrats oz on being that guy.

It's a rare day (although it does happen from time to time - retagent on a good day comes to mind as one) that an opposing fan adds any value when they come on here. It's obvious, oz is never one to buck that trend.

Why do fans of teams that don't have any legitimate indepth understanding or knowledge of our league or UWW come on this site and work so hard to argue against any and all that is WIAC or more specifically UWW? I'm sure it isn't insecurity?....they show a level of self-assuredness that is nearly astronomical.

Do they think they can convince us to denounce our WIAC allegiance or return our Warhawk fan membership credentials or to exhibit more sympathy towards the so-called under privileged? .....No one could be that obtuse.

Do they just like arguing?...hum, that might be it!!

I have to say I am amazed at people like oz.  They will argue any point, whether serious or said in jest or just to get their goat.

So, yeah, let's have some fun!!

*** The views of Bobo expressed here do not necessarily represent the viewpoints of the rest of us WIACers who do not wear purple-tinted glasses....
Have some fun, fellows...

[02 Warhawk]

Wally
I completely get what you're saying and I agree with the concept that some of the greatest coaches don't necessarily win a ton of games.
But I'm not over complicating it as much as you're under complicating it.
Being a great head coach is so much more than the actual act of coaching football players and getting the most out of them.
You'd take Walker to win w UWW's players- as though that team existed in a vacuum. That team existed because of all the pieces put in place previously- and those pieces attracted the "dudes". 
A better question is I'll give Walker UWW's 2014 squad for the entire season. Give LL UWRF's program since, let's say 2011. What are the results of the 2014 season for both?

Walker's UWW wins 10 out of 10 times. Even if LL has his entire coaching staff with him, I still don't ever see LL turning UWRF into what UWW is today, no matter how long he has.

I just think UWW was the perfect scenario for a very good coach to prosper...and then some. UWW already had a program with a solid foundation; great facilities; not to mention the recruiting proximity to Chicago, Madison and Milwaukee. UWRF has none of these intangibles. Not to mention UWRF has to recruit against many MIAC programs.

However, I do think LL is the superior coach of the two and would make UWRF a competitive program...over time. But never the caliber that UWW is at now. I've read the analogy on here that says LL was given the keys of a Ferrari when he came to UWW. I think a more accurate description would be: We was given the keys to a Camaro, and refurbished it into a Ferrari 

[02 Warhawk]

Must have been a rough off season for recruiting punters 

[emma17]

Yeah, UWW wins.  Jimmies and Joes beat Xs and Os 9/10 times.

I should have been more clear.
I'm not asking who wins the UWW- UWRF game in the scenario I preented. I'm asking what are the results for each team in 2014 (entire season)?
Does UWW still go 15-0?  Does UWRF still go 3-7?

[emma17]

Wally
I completely get what you're saying and I agree with the concept that some of the greatest coaches don't necessarily win a ton of games.
But I'm not over complicating it as much as you're under complicating it.
Being a great head coach is so much more than the actual act of coaching football players and getting the most out of them.
You'd take Walker to win w UWW's players- as though that team existed in a vacuum. That team existed because of all the pieces put in place previously- and those pieces attracted the "dudes". 
A better question is I'll give Walker UWW's 2014 squad for the entire season. Give LL UWRF's program since, let's say 2011. What are the results of the 2014 season for both?

Walker's UWW wins 10 out of 10 times. Even if LL has his entire coaching staff with him, I still don't ever see LL turning UWRF into what UWW is today, no matter how long he has.

I just think UWW was the perfect scenario for a very good coach to prosper...and then some. UWW already had a program with a solid foundation; great facilities; not to mention the recruiting proximity to Chicago, Madison and Milwaukee. UWRF has none of these intangibles. Not to mention UWRF has to recruit against many MIAC programs.

However, I do think LL is the superior coach of the two and would make UWRF a competitive program...over time. But never the caliber that UWW is at now. I've read the analogy on here that says LL was given the keys of a Ferrari when he came to UWW. I think a more accurate description would be: We was given the keys to a Camaro, and refurbished it into a Ferrari 

What are the results of the season- not the game.

[OzJohnnie]

Too much brine in the kimchi, Bobo?  You get personal fast, playing the man not the ball. How small of you.

On the flip side, you offer no argument, only invective. So I guess that means you agree or at least fear it's true that LL would not fair well. Interesting.

Out of curiosity, do the tips of your ears burn in excitement as you type your bile and do you lean back, pushing the pizza boxes and Pepsi cans out of the way, to scratch yourself in congratulations on another hate filled tirade?  The worst bit is is when the corner shop runs out of pizza rolls. I bet that really lights you up.

[wally_wabash]

Yeah, UWW wins.  Jimmies and Joes beat Xs and Os 9/10 times.

I should have been more clear.
I'm not asking who wins the UWW- UWRF game in the scenario I preented. I'm asking what are the results for each team in 2014 (entire season)?
Does UWW still go 15-0?  Does UWRF still go 3-7?

Interesting twist.  I'd say that UWW has a much better chance to be 15-0 than UWRF has to be something significantly better than 3-7.  The scenario is still kind of the same from my POV- one roster has players that can achieve a national championship and one doesn't.  And while Leipold might be enough of a master to take that team and find some more wins (1? 3?  either way, that's still not a playoff team) Walker isn't the kind of dope that would undermine the potential of UWWs roster. 

I should interject here before/if this goes any further, I'm not trying to undercut Coach Leipold.  He's been teaching a master class in D3 for 8 years.  Nobody has been better and it isn't close.  He won the chess match with Larry Kehres more than he didn't.  No other validation is necessary here. 

[02 Warhawk]

Wally
I completely get what you're saying and I agree with the concept that some of the greatest coaches don't necessarily win a ton of games.
But I'm not over complicating it as much as you're under complicating it.
Being a great head coach is so much more than the actual act of coaching football players and getting the most out of them.
You'd take Walker to win w UWW's players- as though that team existed in a vacuum. That team existed because of all the pieces put in place previously- and those pieces attracted the "dudes". 
A better question is I'll give Walker UWW's 2014 squad for the entire season. Give LL UWRF's program since, let's say 2011. What are the results of the 2014 season for both?

Walker's UWW wins 10 out of 10 times. Even if LL has his entire coaching staff with him, I still don't ever see LL turning UWRF into what UWW is today, no matter how long he has.

I just think UWW was the perfect scenario for a very good coach to prosper...and then some. UWW already had a program with a solid foundation; great facilities; not to mention the recruiting proximity to Chicago, Madison and Milwaukee. UWRF has none of these intangibles. Not to mention UWRF has to recruit against many MIAC programs.

However, I do think LL is the superior coach of the two and would make UWRF a competitive program...over time. But never the caliber that UWW is at now. I've read the analogy on here that says LL was given the keys of a Ferrari when he came to UWW. I think a more accurate description would be: We was given the keys to a Camaro, and refurbished it into a Ferrari 

What are the results of the season- not the game.

Maybe LL wins a game or two more, while Walker might get one or two losses in the regular season, and possibly fall short of the Stagg Bowl. No doubt Walker is every bit good of a coach as Wally says, but LL was in a class by himself. I'm not sure (but I could be wrong) if Walker has that attention to detail that made LL so successful. Like Wally mentioned, not too many coaches out there get the best of a LK team.

However, if Walker has UWW's assistants (Borland, Kotelnicki, Bullis, ect..)  from last year, than his chances of getting to the Stagg Bowl increases. IMO

[02 Warhawk]

Jake on training for the NFL

[ExTartanPlayer]

I'm not asking who wins the UWW- UWRF game in the scenario I preented. I'm asking what are the results for each team in 2014 (entire season)? Does UWW still go 15-0?  Does UWRF still go 3-7?

Interesting twist.  I'd say that UWW has a much better chance to be 15-0 than UWRF has to be something significantly better than 3-7.  The scenario is still kind of the same from my POV- one roster has players that can achieve a national championship and one doesn't.  And while Leipold might be enough of a master to take that team and find some more wins (1? 3?  either way, that's still not a playoff team) Walker isn't the kind of dope that would undermine the potential of UWWs roster. 

I still think you've slightly misunderstood emma's hypothetical.  I read it not just asking "what if Matt Walker and Lance Leipold swapped rosters for the 2014 season" but as "if you had put Leipold at UWRF and Walker at UWW starting in 2011, what would the programs look like four years later?"  So instead of asking "could Walker have shepherded the 2014 Warhawks to a national title given the 2014 UWW roster" the final questions are:

"if Walker took over at UWW in 2011, would UWW still be winning national titles in 2014?"
...combined with...
"if Leipold takes over at UWRF in 2011, is UWRF still 3-7 in 2014?"

Of course those are difficult to answer, but emma's hypothetical does get after a good point that Gregory Sager has made often on the CCIW boards: recruiting dudes is part of coaching, as much as running practices and making in-game tactical decisions.  There are institutional challenges at some places that also make recruiting easier/harder at certain places, of course, and thus that does not invalidate your point about Ramsey at Oberlin and other coaches working with limited rosters. 

But the reason I find the above interesting is this: it is pretty likely that a Walker could have steered UWW to a nearly-as-good season as they just had if he takes over the team in August 2014.  The interesting (and un-answerable) question is "If Matt Walker took over UWW in 2011, does he still run that program well enough to have them in the Stagg Bowl in 2014?"  Because honestly, we might all think "Hell, Pat Coleman could have taken over UWW in August 2014 and gone to at least the semifinals" while ignoring that this is only true because LL has laid the groundwork for that over several years prior.

Delving further into the ether, if anyone's ever read Ken Dryden's excellent book The Game, he postulates that in hockey there is such a thing as "good team" goalies and "bad team" goalies.  The "good team" goalie needs to play within himself because the team in front of him is good enough to win the game as long as he doesn't lose it for them; the "bad team" goalie must take more chances on being spectacular because the team in front of him needs that spectacular play to have a chance at winning.

Slightly modified, I think this general principle can apply to football coaches as well.  There are good "limited resource team" coaches who might be really good at taking a below-average program and getting the most out of what they can with the limited resources available, but can only carry that program so far.  There are good "juggernaut program" coaches who, once they have a juggernaut in place, will steer the ship ably and carry on winning big.  Which is the "better" coach?  I don't know that you can answer that definitely because the context in which each is doing their job matters.

What would happen if two of the above just had to switch places?  We don't really know.  It just doesn't happen much.  Probably the best examples come from D1 rather than D3, examples like Urban Meyer turning Bowling Green and Utah into juggernauts before doing the same at Florida and now Ohio State.  He's a good example of "a good coach is a good coach anywhere."

In some ways LL going D1 is going to be a neat litmus test here.  We've seen that he can build the Cadillac of his own Division and keep it running smoothly.  What will happen when he takes over a broken-down 1985 Volvo?  Can he get it up and running, competitive with his peers?  I suspect that he will, but this will be a neat example of a highly successful "juggernaut" coach starting with a ground-level project that we don't see very often.

[emma17]

Well said Ex,
Thanks for helping out.

There is at least one more aspect to this good coaching thing that I see some gloss over as 02 did- and that is the recruiting of assistant coaches. 02 said- "If Walker had Borland and Kotelniki ..."- well he doesn't. Now I know Borland was in place pre- LL, but there is a reason Borland stayed when LL arrived and while LL was there and when LL decided to leave- he joined him. The other great assistants are recruits just as the best UWW players are recruits.
This championship program thing requires so much more than just coaching football players. Yes recruiting is key- but you don't get the studs unless the studs but into what you've put in place/are putting in place.

Give LL and his approach 3-4 years at UWRF and I believe they are a playoff team.
If Walker had that much time at UWW are they repeat champions?  Do they win all those incredibly close games?