FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[wally_wabash]

Well said Ex,
Thanks for helping out.

There is at least one more aspect to this good coaching thing that I see some gloss over as 02 did- and that is the recruiting of assistant coaches. 02 said- "If Walker had Borland and Kotelniki ..."- well he doesn't. Now I know Borland was in place pre- LL, but there is a reason Borland stayed when LL arrived and while LL was there and when LL decided to leave- he joined him. The other great assistants are recruits just as the best UWW players are recruits.
This championship program thing requires so much more than just coaching football players. Yes recruiting is key- but you don't get the studs unless the studs but into what you've put in place/are putting in place.

Give LL and his approach 3-4 years at UWRF and I believe they are a playoff team.
If Walker had that much time at UWW are they repeat champions?  Do they win all those incredibly close games?

I don't think there's any basis for this and I think you're really discounting the importance of institutional support and economics.  People don't care at River Falls.  258 people watched their game against Whitewater last fall.  258, man.  That's what 20 years of terrible does.  You don't flip that around in 3-4 years, not without something else changing (specifically dollars into the program).  You can coach 'em up and maybe win 4-5 games regularly, have the occasional 7-win year when you've got a bunch of seniors, but I don't think you can get the players to River Falls to win that league.  Not when you've got to convince players to not go to Whitewater or Oshkosh or St. Johns or Bethel.  There's a ceiling there that Bear Bryant wouldn't be able to bust through. 

[ExTartanPlayer]

Give LL and his approach 3-4 years at UWRF and I believe they are a playoff team.
If Walker had that much time at UWW are they repeat champions?  Do they win all those incredibly close games?

Agreed that these are interesting hypotheticals, which again gets at my point above about the (potential, intangible) differences between someone being a "good coach that gets the most out of limited resources" vs. "good coach that takes quality talent/resources and delivers top-notch results" - there are some coaches who undoubtedly could do either, and some who are probably better suited for one role or the other.  We're about to watch LL take a crack at being the former (in D1) after showing for the last few years that he was fabulous at the latter (in D3).

One thing we should probably remember is that this conversation stemmed from wally making a comment that Matt Walker is the "real deal" - which certainly implies that he's a good coach, but not necessarily on par with a guy that just notched one of the most successful coaching tenures on any level in any collegiate sport.  That's admittedly a question where it's fair to say that the jury is arguably still out.  His record at DePauw was quite good; his UWRF tenure is..., well, the first couple of years at UWRF were obviously not great, and that can't entirely be blamed on the empty-cupboard-at-the-start because he went 0-10 in his third season (although, looking at the season, that was a relatively competitive 0-10 team, with two losses by a point and two more by three points).  Last year, 3-7 with several close losses, appeared to be some progress.  A step forward this year would indicate that he might be the man to lead UWRF from cellar to middle-of-the-road, at least.

As a sidebar, this is why I think context matters as much as raw coaching records in evaluating a coaches' prowess.  Guys that take over a really bad program can end up with a wonky career record that's not really representative of their abilities as a coach (and this is probably something that discourages hot collegiate HC candidates from jumping at the first HC job they are offered in favor of awaiting a more favorable opportunity).

[ExTartanPlayer]

Well said Ex,
Thanks for helping out.

There is at least one more aspect to this good coaching thing that I see some gloss over as 02 did- and that is the recruiting of assistant coaches. 02 said- "If Walker had Borland and Kotelniki ..."- well he doesn't. Now I know Borland was in place pre- LL, but there is a reason Borland stayed when LL arrived and while LL was there and when LL decided to leave- he joined him. The other great assistants are recruits just as the best UWW players are recruits.
This championship program thing requires so much more than just coaching football players. Yes recruiting is key- but you don't get the studs unless the studs but into what you've put in place/are putting in place.

Give LL and his approach 3-4 years at UWRF and I believe they are a playoff team.
If Walker had that much time at UWW are they repeat champions?  Do they win all those incredibly close games?

I don't think there's any basis for this and I think you're really discounting the importance of institutional support and economics.  People don't care at River Falls.  258 people watched their game against Whitewater last fall.  258, man.  That's what 20 years of terrible does.  You don't flip that around in 3-4 years, not without something else changing (specifically dollars into the program).  You can coach 'em up and maybe win 4-5 games regularly, have the occasional 7-win year when you've got a bunch of seniors, but I don't think you can get the players to River Falls to win that league.  Not when you've got to convince players to not go to Whitewater or Oshkosh or St. Johns or Bethel.  There's a ceiling there that Bear Bryant wouldn't be able to bust through.

I agree.  A few hundred miles to the south, I think we're going to witness an interesting test case for this with Mike Conway at North Park.  He took a team with zero conference wins in a decade and managed to inject a little competitiveness into the program, but they are still light-years away from actually competing to win that league.  I will be curious to see how far Conway is able to get them on that spectrum (or if he is scooped up by someone else after his sons graduate).  My suspicion is that he'll do very well to get them to .500 or better, but winning the league is probably not in the cards within a four-year window for anyone taking over that North Park program in 2013.

[bulk19]

Since we are slinging hypotheticals and what ifs and who-would-do-what-wheres? all over the place:

I think the more pressing question is what Bobo thinks the record would have been at UWW the last two years if the guy in way over his head, with the confused look to him on the sidelines, was at Whitewater???

"The jury is still out on VK - can that guy really coach?"   

[d-train]

Okay, so what if LL had Favre but Walker had 20 mini Ditkas.

[emma17]

Wally and Ex
To be clear let me say I'm a big fan of Walker. I made it pretty clear post UWW- UWRF how I felt about that team. When I build a case for LL I don't mean to appear as though I'm anti Walker.
I know I get carried away at times for my support for LL.  My point in building the case is not simply to elevate LL- but to recognize the breadth of aspects a head coach must do well in order to succeed.
As for UWRF not being in a location to succeed- I agree only to a point. Yes it's harder to recruit up there. But I've seen first hand UWRF be successful years ago- and they haven't moved locations far as I can tell.  If UWRF announced today that LL was their new head football coach- do you think their recruiting and attendance wouldn't change instantly?  I do.
The UB move will be incredibly interesting to watch unfold.

[Pat Coleman]

I'm not asking who wins the UWW- UWRF game in the scenario I preented. I'm asking what are the results for each team in 2014 (entire season)? Does UWW still go 15-0?  Does UWRF still go 3-7?

Interesting twist.  I'd say that UWW has a much better chance to be 15-0 than UWRF has to be something significantly better than 3-7.  The scenario is still kind of the same from my POV- one roster has players that can achieve a national championship and one doesn't.  And while Leipold might be enough of a master to take that team and find some more wins (1? 3?  either way, that's still not a playoff team) Walker isn't the kind of dope that would undermine the potential of UWWs roster. 

I still think you've slightly misunderstood emma's hypothetical.  I read it not just asking "what if Matt Walker and Lance Leipold swapped rosters for the 2014 season" but as "if you had put Leipold at UWRF and Walker at UWW starting in 2011, what would the programs look like four years later?"  So instead of asking "could Walker have shepherded the 2014 Warhawks to a national title given the 2014 UWW roster" the final questions are:

"if Walker took over at UWW in 2011, would UWW still be winning national titles in 2014?"
...combined with...
"if Leipold takes over at UWRF in 2011, is UWRF still 3-7 in 2014?"

Of course those are difficult to answer, but emma's hypothetical does get after a good point that Gregory Sager has made often on the CCIW boards: recruiting dudes is part of coaching, as much as running practices and making in-game tactical decisions.  There are institutional challenges at some places that also make recruiting easier/harder at certain places, of course, and thus that does not invalidate your point about Ramsey at Oberlin and other coaches working with limited rosters. 

But the reason I find the above interesting is this: it is pretty likely that a Walker could have steered UWW to a nearly-as-good season as they just had if he takes over the team in August 2014.  The interesting (and un-answerable) question is "If Matt Walker took over UWW in 2011, does he still run that program well enough to have them in the Stagg Bowl in 2014?"  Because honestly, we might all think "Hell, Pat Coleman could have taken over UWW in August 2014 and gone to at least the semifinals" while ignoring that this is only true because LL has laid the groundwork for that over several years prior.

I appreciate the shoutout but I'm only qualified to coach baseball. And I wouldn't be as good a baseball coach as Matt Walker!

[wally_wabash]

Wally and Ex
To be clear let me say I'm a big fan of Walker. I made it pretty clear post UWW- UWRF how I felt about that team. When I build a case for LL I don't mean to appear as though I'm anti Walker.
I know I get carried away at times for my support for LL.  My point in building the case is not simply to elevate LL- but to recognize the breadth of aspects a head coach must do well in order to succeed.
As for UWRF not being in a location to succeed- I agree only to a point. Yes it's harder to recruit up there. But I've seen first hand UWRF be successful years ago- and they haven't moved locations far as I can tell.  If UWRF announced today that LL was their new head football coach- do you think their recruiting and attendance wouldn't change instantly?  I do. The UB move will be incredibly interesting to watch unfold.

Now you're asking me to suspend disbelief beyond what this hypothetical calls for.  Would people get interested in River Falls football if they hired Lance Leipold?  Sure.  The same way people would get interested if they hired Mike McCarthy or Urban Meyer.  But River Falls can't afford any of those guys so the point is moot.  If they could afford those guys they could also afford other things like turf, soccer and baseball teams, and (of course) hot tubs for athletes. 

I appreciate the shoutout but I'm only qualified to coach baseball. And I wouldn't be as good a baseball coach as Matt Walker!

No doubt.  The Wabash baseball fan in me wasn't sorry to see him vacate the diamond either.   

[Pat Coleman]

As for UWRF not being in a location to succeed- I agree only to a point. Yes it's harder to recruit up there. But I've seen first hand UWRF be successful years ago- and they haven't moved locations far as I can tell. 

Regardless of geography, the issue is that UWRF stayed still in many ways while Division III moved around them. UWRF didn't keep up with the times, not in scheme, not in facilities, and dug itself into a hole that is difficult to get out of.

I thought Walker would have an immediate impact as soon as he got there. But I underestimated how far they had to go. This is a crucial year -- obviously 2014 was a step forward and now they need to not lose ground to the teams they were competitive with last year.

[bulk19]

As for UWRF not being in a location to succeed- I agree only to a point. Yes it's harder to recruit up there. But I've seen first hand UWRF be successful years ago- and they haven't moved locations far as I can tell. 

Regardless of geography, the issue is that UWRF stayed still in many ways while Division III moved around them. UWRF didn't keep up with the times, not in scheme, not in facilities, and dug itself into a hole that is difficult to get out of.

I thought Walker would have an immediate impact as soon as he got there. But I underestimated how far they had to go. This is a crucial year -- obviously 2014 was a step forward and now they need to not lose ground to the teams they were competitive with last year.

I'm not disagreeing with Pat, but I'm curious about the facilities at UWRF...
The Kansas City Chiefs held summer camp there for 19 years, ending that run in 2010... If the facilities were good enough for them, wouldn't they be good enough for the UWRF squad? Or have things taken a turn for the worst there as far as what they have? Do they need a lot of upgrades? (I don't know? I've only been to UWRF once, to watch the Chiefs practice... I can't say I was impressed, or not impressed, with what I saw there, and can really only make minimal comparisons to what I've seen and where I've been, compared to the many other D3 facitilies around the country that Pat has seen...)

Or, is it, as Pat suggests, in part, too, because everyone else in D3 has been moving forward with their programs/schemes, while UWRF has stood pat?

[Pat Coleman]

I'm talking about the stadium specifically. It needs to be replaced (and it is, finally). I haven't been in locker rooms or anything but generally UWRF lags in stadium/arena quality. The new UWRF basketball/volleyball arena will be a much-needed step into the present as well.

[oshfb]

As for UWRF not being in a location to succeed- I agree only to a point. Yes it's harder to recruit up there. But I've seen first hand UWRF be successful years ago- and they haven't moved locations far as I can tell. 

Regardless of geography, the issue is that UWRF stayed still in many ways while Division III moved around them. UWRF didn't keep up with the times, not in scheme, not in facilities, and dug itself into a hole that is difficult to get out of.

I thought Walker would have an immediate impact as soon as he got there. But I underestimated how far they had to go. This is a crucial year -- obviously 2014 was a step forward and now they need to not lose ground to the teams they were competitive with last year.

It surprises me how frequently programs that are perennially poor will blame everything but the coaching staff for the poor success...or even how often you'll hear those fans say "they couldn't have won here". The coaches who are the best really do turn such programs around. Here are a couple locale HS examples (I know, you'll say D3 football in WI is different but I'll disagree) of a staff coming in and turning around a program that every former fan/coach said couldn't be done.

Fond du Lac HS
2011 1-8 (1st yr new staff)
2012 3-5
2013 5-6
2014 10-2

Kimberly HS
2004 5-5 (1st yr new staff)
2005 4-5
2006 9-1
2007 14-0

[dachampishere]

The UWRF vs UWW Walker vs Leipold hypotheticals are great.
Here is my question,when Leipold took over in 2007 Brezowitz had already taken them to two title games. If that wouldn't have happen in 05 and 06 would Leipold would have been able to do what he did? Remember he was    handed keys to a fancy car and told not to crash it. If that didn't happen would he still have had the same success???
We will see how good he does when he takes over a train wreck in Buffalo.

[wally_wabash]

The UWRF vs UWW Walker vs Leipold hypotheticals are great.
Here is my question,when Leipold took over in 2007 Brezowitz had already taken them to two title games. If that wouldn't have happen in 05 and 06 would Leipold would have been able to do what he did? Remember he was    handed keys to a fancy car and told not to crash it. If that didn't happen would he still have had the same success???
We will see how good he does when he takes over a train wreck in Buffalo.

My guess is, yes, he would have.  The question I have isn't whether or not Leipold would have pushed Whitewater to championships, it's whether or not he would have even been interested in the position if they were still kicking around 5 and 7-win seasons.  Alma mater or not, from the vantage point of a guy who has held D1 and D2 jobs I think there's a world of difference between a D-III school that is *this* close to a title and the other 99% of D-III schools.  I'm sure I'll get a bunch of "nuh-uh" out of this take, but I don't think Lance Leipold ever coaches at Whitewater if they weren't "a fancy car". 

[Pat Coleman]

As for UWRF not being in a location to succeed- I agree only to a point. Yes it's harder to recruit up there. But I've seen first hand UWRF be successful years ago- and they haven't moved locations far as I can tell. 

Regardless of geography, the issue is that UWRF stayed still in many ways while Division III moved around them. UWRF didn't keep up with the times, not in scheme, not in facilities, and dug itself into a hole that is difficult to get out of.

I thought Walker would have an immediate impact as soon as he got there. But I underestimated how far they had to go. This is a crucial year -- obviously 2014 was a step forward and now they need to not lose ground to the teams they were competitive with last year.

It surprises me how frequently programs that are perennially poor will blame everything but the coaching staff for the poor success...or even how often you'll hear those fans say "they couldn't have won here". The coaches who are the best really do turn such programs around. Here are a couple locale HS examples (I know, you'll say D3 football in WI is different but I'll disagree) of a staff coming in and turning around a program that every former fan/coach said couldn't be done.

Fond du Lac HS
2011 1-8 (1st yr new staff)
2012 3-5
2013 5-6
2014 10-2

Kimberly HS
2004 5-5 (1st yr new staff)
2005 4-5
2006 9-1
2007 14-0

And it's not difficult elsewhere in Division III -- but taking a moribund program in the best conference in D-III and turning it around is not really analogous to what you describe here.