FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[The Third Division]

Wow, and I thought last year's start to the year was rough.

And then starting next year a home and home against NCC!!

Oh that's right, they won't play us.

You mean they won't or they don't want to?

A distinction without a difference.

I was going to say.  "They won't because they don't want to." 

Obviously, not the choice of the players. But those that schedule the players don't see the advantages of playing UW-W. 

I see great advantages in playing NCC. As in playing an awesome team without traveling 1,105 miles!

Very thankful for JCU,  SJU, and UMHB

As a fan, I'm all for the tough non conference games. As for any advantage to UWW and NCC playing each other (other than proximity), I think the risks outweigh the rewards, especially for UWW given the difficulty of winning the conference. UWW likely had the toughest non conference schedule last season and I'm not sure it did the team much good. A conference loss to UWP and a first round exit.

Perhaps the advantages gained from the super tough non conference schedule are realized by up and coming programs and their coaching staffs/young players.

Couldn't agree more, Emma.

Other than it being a great story for D3, I don't see the benefit of scheduling games against top 10 teams right out of the gate. I mean, UWW did just fine from 2005-2014 scheduling games where the backups were in by the 4th quarter (for the most part).I know there were a few times where we played a D2 school and that good NAIA team from Iowa. But mostly their non conference schedule was pretty "easy"...and the team responded well to it.

I don't blame NCC at all for not wanting to do it. The risk outweighs the reward. I'm actually kind of glad we don't have to fade them thag early. 

but, but, but strength of schedule!!!! it makes no sense financially for D3 teams to be flying all over the country for OOC games, especially midwest teams

but, but, but strength of schedule sucks because it only favors smaller conferences.

[Pat Coleman]

It takes two to schedule.

[bleedpurple]

Wow, and I thought last year's start to the year was rough.

And then starting next year a home and home against NCC!!

Oh that's right, they won't play us.

You mean they won't or they don't want to?

A distinction without a difference.

I was going to say.  "They won't because they don't want to." 

Obviously, not the choice of the players. But those that schedule the players don't see the advantages of playing UW-W. 

I see great advantages in playing NCC. As in playing an awesome team without traveling 1,105 miles!

Very thankful for JCU,  SJU, and UMHB

As a fan, I'm all for the tough non conference games. As for any advantage to UWW and NCC playing each other (other than proximity), I think the risks outweigh the rewards, especially for UWW given the difficulty of winning the conference. UWW likely had the toughest non conference schedule last season and I'm not sure it did the team much good. A conference loss to UWP and a first round exit.

Perhaps the advantages gained from the super tough non conference schedule are realized by up and coming programs and their coaching staffs/young players.

Couldn't agree more, Emma.

Other than it being a great story for D3, I don't see the benefit of scheduling games against top 10 teams right out of the gate. I mean, UWW did just fine from 2005-2014 scheduling games where the backups were in by the 4th quarter (for the most part).I know there were a few times where we played a D2 school and that good NAIA team from Iowa. But mostly their non conference schedule was pretty "easy"...and the team responded well to it.

I don't blame NCC at all for not wanting to do it. The risk outweighs the reward. I'm actually kind of glad we don't have to fade them thag early. 

But there's a little bit of sugar coating to the bolded statement above.  Lance was extremely frustrated that he couldn't get games with better teams.  Some of those non-conference games did nothing to prepare us for the WIAC. He was often criticized for scheduling "cream puffs" and his reply was consistent, "Do you want us to play air?  Because that was the only alternative. No one else would play us." 

I don't know that the team responded well to it. They got better work during a Wednesday practice. I think we were just that good and we did well in spite of a poor non-conference schedule. I think it's wrong if you are implying that non-conference schedule helped us. 

Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't mind playing two games against better than average D-III teams and maybe one elite team in the non-conference season. But as Pat says, "It takes two to schedule."

[02 Warhawk]

Wow, and I thought last year's start to the year was rough.

And then starting next year a home and home against NCC!!

Oh that's right, they won't play us.

You mean they won't or they don't want to?

A distinction without a difference.

I was going to say.  "They won't because they don't want to." 

Obviously, not the choice of the players. But those that schedule the players don't see the advantages of playing UW-W. 

I see great advantages in playing NCC. As in playing an awesome team without traveling 1,105 miles!

Very thankful for JCU,  SJU, and UMHB

As a fan, I'm all for the tough non conference games. As for any advantage to UWW and NCC playing each other (other than proximity), I think the risks outweigh the rewards, especially for UWW given the difficulty of winning the conference. UWW likely had the toughest non conference schedule last season and I'm not sure it did the team much good. A conference loss to UWP and a first round exit.

Perhaps the advantages gained from the super tough non conference schedule are realized by up and coming programs and their coaching staffs/young players.

Couldn't agree more, Emma.

Other than it being a great story for D3, I don't see the benefit of scheduling games against top 10 teams right out of the gate. I mean, UWW did just fine from 2005-2014 scheduling games where the backups were in by the 4th quarter (for the most part).I know there were a few times where we played a D2 school and that good NAIA team from Iowa. But mostly their non conference schedule was pretty "easy"...and the team responded well to it.

I don't blame NCC at all for not wanting to do it. The risk outweighs the reward. I'm actually kind of glad we don't have to fade them thag early. 

But there's a little bit of sugar coating to the bolded statement above.  Lance was extremely frustrated that he couldn't get games with better teams.  Some of those non-conference games did nothing to prepare us for the WIAC. He was often criticized for scheduling "cream puffs" and his reply was consistent, "Do you want us to play air?  Because that was the only alternative. No one else would play us." 

I don't know that the team responded well to it. They got better work during a Wednesday practice. I think we were just that good and we did well in spite of a poor non-conference schedule. I think it's wrong if you are implying that non-conference schedule helped us. 

Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't mind playing two games against better than average D-III teams and maybe one elite team in the non-conference season. But as Pat says, "It takes two to schedule."

I guess I would question if playing this tough of a schedule really helps the team at all? I think NCC might be sharing that sentiment if they are passing on us. Like Emma mentioned, I just didn't see the benefit of it considering how the rest of the season turned out last year. You could argue the team peaked at the MHB game.

[emma17]

Interesting point 02- "you could argue the team peaked at the MHB game".

[02 Warhawk]

Interesting point 02- "you could argue the team peaked at the MHB game".

I had the offense in mind when I wrote that. Lew was nearly perfect that game. 300+ yards, 3 TDs, 0 Ints, 80% completion rate. Against the #1 team in the land, too!! The way that GW drive was orchestrated, I really thought this team could be something special. Since that day, he only had two games where he didn't throw a pick, and in one of those games he only had 5 attempts. Lew finished his UWW career with 20 TDs and 15 Ints. 

Reminded me of Favre later in his career. Capable of making some outstanding, jaw-dropping throws...followed by some "what in the hell was that?".

[emma17]

Interesting point 02- "you could argue the team peaked at the MHB game".

I had the offense in mind when I wrote that. Lew was nearly perfect that game. 300+ yards, 3 TDs, 0 Ints, 80% completion rate. Against the #1 team in the land, too!! The way that GW drive was orchestrated, I really thought this team could be something special. Since that day, he only had two games where he didn't throw a pick, and in one of those games he only had 5 attempts. Lew finished his UWW career with 20 TDs and 15 Ints. 

Reminded me of Favre later in his career. Capable of making some outstanding, jaw-dropping throws...followed by some "what in the hell was that?".

Well said. It's a bit mind boggling how the season went after the MHB game. I was elated after that game thinking we'd see more of the same the rest of the season.

I do understand the sentiment of believing it's important to play at least one tough opponent in non conference to be sure the team is prepared. However, it's hard to justify that belief when looking at the historical performance. Especially because the team will get tested so much within conference.

[OzJohnnie]

We used to play creampuffs for our out-of-conference games, a good strategy for a long time, but we looked at the last 15 or more years and we saw teams like UWW approaching the non-conference schedule as an opportunity to grow through stressing the system, rather than as little better than a scrimmage.  We've steadily increased the quality of our non-conference competition and it's helped our squad improve.  For the national competition that D3 is now, it seems the best way to be nationally competitive - as difficult as it is to succeed with that challenge.

Dunno.   It's a tough call.  But you've got the beat the best to be the best.  And taking on the best during the regular season when there is still an opportunity to improve seems advantageous over the lose-and-done scenario of the post-season.  We'll see over the next few seasons.  Maybe the nationally competitive teams will all cycle back to easy non-conference schedules now.

[emma17]

^^
It makes sense in theory but I don't know the stats prove it out. When I have a minute I'll look, but I'm very curious to see the non con schedule for the last 15 Stagg champions.

[SpartanHouse4]

IMO, important to schedule a quality non-conference schedule as it motivates the team all off-season knowing they have a quality opponent to open the season.

[sigma one]

I took emma 17's comment to heart.  Starting (not 15 years back) in 2010 here are the Stagg bowl teams OOC schedule, both for the champions and the runners-up.  (I have omitted St Thomas; they appeared twice:  2012 and 2015.)
     Of course, Mount Union and UW Whitwater have made so many appearances, it makes it easier to add up the numbers.  Mount has only one OOC game each year.  The opponents and the scores:
Mount Union--Oshkosh (45-28), Oshkosh (41-17), Franklin (45-7), Franklin (30-27), Bethany (58-7), Bethany (47-0), NC Wesleyan (58-0), Rose-Hulman (54-0), Defiance (65-0).
UW Whitewater:  Adrian (35-0), Dakota St (70-7), Campbellsville (39-7), Franklin  (45-0), Campbellsville (54-14), Waldorf (73-7), Franklin (42-13), TCNJ (48-0), Dubuque (43-7), Concordia-Moorhead (20-10), St Xavier (28-20).
Mary Hardin-Baylor:  Albright (91-7), Louisiana College (80-7),  Ohio  Wesleyan (56-0), Linfield (66-27), Louisiana College (63-7) [don't remember if LU was a member of the SWC at the time], Christopher Newport (43-13), Simpson (84-6), Austin (56-0)  [again can't recall if Austin was a conference member].
North Central:  Dubuque (43-7), Aurora (64-7), Wabash (56-12).
Oshkosh:  John Carroll (33-14), Finlandia (68-7), Northland (77-0).
      I hope didn't miss any; if I did, oops.  Make of this what you will and keep in mind , as Pat has often said, it takes two to schedule. 

[02 Warhawk]

Kind of a mixed bag there Sigma. Looks like teams have success getting to the Stagg Bowl with or without a tough non-conference schedule. I just think good teams have success because....well...they're good. Not so much because they played tough teams to start the season to get them "ready".

In fact, if you look back at my old posts, I'm sure you'll find me leading the charge on UWW finding tough teams to play to increase their SOS to boost their Regional rankings. However, now that I'm older and wiser(ish), looking back I really don't think it matter much. I mean Whitewater had plenty of powder puff games to start the year from 2005-2014, and they still went on to the Stagg Bowl 8 times during that stretch. Recently we've been scheduling tougher teams, and have made it back to the Stagg only once in the past 8 years. I'm not at all saying playing an easy non-conference will lead to playoff success. I just think if the team is good, they will go far. Who they schedule in September has very little baring how good (or not good) that team will be that season.

[sigma one]

Yea, I agree. Plenty of cupcakes (again what part does the ability to schedule better teams play).  Some quality opponents, a few of which have been frequently at or near the top of their conference.  Looking at the aggregate scores, only four of all the OOC results have been within three touchdowns. 

[emma17]

Thanks for providing the research Sigma, much appreciated.
I think the conversation we're having has two subjects.

One subject is a team's position on scheduling what should be highly competitive non conference games. This is where "it takes two to schedule" is applicable. From what Bleed said, UWW has historically tried to schedule strong opponents, but not with great success until LL left (fodder for another discussion topic).

The other subject is whether it's necessary to schedule highly competitive non conference games in order to achieve national success- especially once the team has reached the level of competing deep in the playoffs. Based on the scores you provided, it sure doesn't appear the non conference schedule has any bearing whatsoever on national success.

[palum]

One thing that frustrates me about WIAC non conference scheduling.  To many times WIAC teams are forced to schedule D2 schools, non D3 schools or travel long distances to fill out their schedule. There are around 7 D3 conferences that either have schools in Wisconsin or border Wisconsin and many of them do not schedule WIAC schools. 5 American Rivers schools scheduled WIAC teams, 4 Minnesota schools had WIAC teams on their schedule the UMAC 2.  After that it falls off the Midwest Conference no WIAC teams, CCIW 1, Michigan 1, NACC 1. In my opinion there are many potential regional rivalries that could develope. WW, Carroll and Carthage are all less than an hours drive. Oshkosh, St. Norberts and Ripon are practically neighbors. I'm glad Platteville has put Dubuque back on their schedule after 5 years. The teams close to Minnesota have had good fortune with Minnesota teams. Local bragging rights, less travel costs and helping the selection committee figure out the pool C bids are all reasons to schedule WIAC schools.  Sorry for my rant it's time for my afternoon nap.