FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

[stoutguy]

I'll chime in with the dissenting voice, I guess. To debunk one of the arguments for it, using a native mascot is not "honoring" a race. Why do I think that way? Because that is what many natives say.

Is that a hypersensitive stance? Who am I to say? But I'll take them at their word.

I know I may never change your minds on the subject, and I know this may not be the easiest crowd to try to win over, anyway. This board is about football, so I don't want to get too far away from that.

But I felt strongly enough about what some of you posted to responded.

Just a quick anecdote: I, too, am white and attended a school with an "Indian" mascot. I, too, wondered what the fuss was all about. Then, I discovered that the "Indian" mascot of my Wisconsin school bore the head dress of the Sioux Nation (I think. I know it wasn't a Wisconsin-based tribe, anyway). It went downhill from there. It turned out there was no redeeming quality to that former "Indian" mascot. The only thing going for it was what alums were calling "tradition." That's the same thing the natives are trying to reclaim as their own.

My school's situation could be unique, but I am certain that my school made the right decision.

I won't waste your time in laying out all my views on the subject. There are football games and players to post about. However, there is a Wisconsin-based Web site that sums up nicely how I and many others feel about the subject.

Let the negative karma rain!

http://www.indianmascots.com/

No negative karma from me.  You made your point very well.  I just don't agree with the part about the Indian Nation as a whole being offended.  That has not been my experience.  And these kind words are coming from a Menomonie Indian fan who just called a game in Menomonie where "our" team just lost a conference game for the first time in 47 games.   Joe LaBuda has been here for 19 years and has 16 conference championships to show for his work so let's not hang our heads.  Congrats to an outstanding Chippewa Falls team.  Wait a minute--------Chippewa--hey they can't say that, can they?

[stoutguy]

Hmmm... maybe UW-Eau Claire's nickname isn't so stupid after all. At least, they haven't offended any "Blugolds," that I know of.

Our college nickname was the "Garnet." It's also difficult to offend a rock!!

So, has anyone ever called you a "rockhead"

[footballfan413]

I don't agree with "interpreted to be offensive by any enough American Indians than the changes need to be made."  So 99.99% are OK but if 1 whiner says something we have to change?

That's ridiculous.

I'm sure some PETA nut could be found to say we should stop naming teams after animals, too.

Guess I should have chosen my words more carefully.  But I didn't realize that someone would think I meant that if even ONE person objects, that should be enough to warrant change!      I assumed that everyone would realize that for the NCAA to facilitate such a nation wide change, the pressure came from a much larger number.  But I don't believe that the Native American community as a whole is offended by it.  That is what makes the issue more complicated.  But there are certainly many who are.

  I think OshDude said it better than I did.   

I'll chime in with the dissenting voice, I guess. To debunk one of the arguments for it, using a native mascot is not "honoring" a race. Why do I think that way? Because that is what many natives say.

Is that a hypersensitive stance? Who am I to say? But I'll take them at their word.

"Perception is reality," Gentlemen,  and it is not the White Man's perception that is important regarding this issue, IMHO.

[Rico 21]

You guys think you had it bad....           I went through high school as a Beaver!

[Just Bill]

I believe there's a right way and a wrong way to do it.  The two that truly offend me are the Cleveland Indians Chief Wahoo mascot and the name Washington Redskins.  Chief Wahoo is a goofy, grinning, cartoonish representation.  The name Redskins is a derogatory term used by white settlers.  I don't see a way to argue that they are honoring or paying tribute to Native Americans with the use of those logos and names.

Florida State and McMurry are two examples of the right way.  They have worked closely with the Native Americans they represent and include them closely in they manner in which they display their traditions.

I have to disagree on one aspect of Chief Illiniwek.  The campus I used to work at (in Illinois actually) hosted three pow-wows a year so I got to observe many different Native American dances and speak with the tribe leaders on a semi-regular basis.  The dance that the Chief did at basketball games was ridiculous.   There was nothing traditionally accurate about it at all.  It was a white guy in a headdress leaping and leg-kicking like a chorus girl.  Native American dances are traditionally low key and rhythmic.  A kind of meditation.  (I guess meditation dances probably don't pump up a crowd very well.)  The Native Americans I spoke to there didn't have a problem with the name Illini or even the mascot himself, but were absolutley appalled by the ridiculous dance.  I believe at some point the dance was very traditional, but over time U. of Illinois lost some of that connection to the real Native Americans and it metamorphisized into what you saw until last year.

I admit, I'm uncomfortable when I see representations of what are supposed Native American "traditions".  Sometimes they are accurate and sometimes they aren't.  It's important to me to know if the school has forged a connection with the local tribes and are including the tribe in maintianing those traditions as accurately and respectfully as possible.

In other words, when it's a partnership between the the school and the tribe, I think it's a great melding of cultures.  When it's a one-sided relationship, over time it likely evolves into something that is no longer honorable or respectful.

Thank you everyone for a very thoughtful discussion.

[Just Bill]

P.S.  If you want to scream about "political correctness" then scream at the schools who dropped the name Trojan because it's the same name as a brand of condoms.  Now that's ridiculous!

[kestrel]

"Most Native people do not feel honored by Indian symbolism used in public schools.  We experience it as no less than a mockery of our cultures.  We see objects sacred to us--drum eagle feathers, face painting, and traditional dress--being used, not in sacred ceremony, or in any cultural setting, but in another culture's game.  ...High school athletic traditions have taken the trappings of Native culture onto the playing field where young people play at being 'Indian.' Over time, and with practice, generations of children in these schools have come to believe that the pretended 'Indian' identity is more than what it is. ...Using the term 'political correctness' to describe the efforts of concerned Native people to remove stereotypes from the public schools trivializes a survival issue.  Over 95% of the indigenous people in the Americas have been exterminated.  Today, the average life expectancey of Native American males is age 45. The teen suicide rate among Native people is several times higher than the national average.  Stereotypes, ignorance, silent inaction and even naive innocence damage and destroy individual lives and whole cultures.  Racism kills."
                                                                            Barbara Munson
                                                                            Woman of the Oneida Nation
                                                                            Mosinee, WI

[natecook59]

Stoutguy
No negative karma from me.  You made your point very well.  I just don't agree with the part about the Indian Nation as a whole being offended.  That has not been my experience.  And these kind words are coming from a Menomonie Indian fan who just called a game in Menomonie where "our" team just lost a conference game for the first time in 47 games.   Joe LaBuda has been here for 19 years and has 16 conference championships to show for his work so let's not hang our heads.  Congrats to an outstanding Chippewa Falls team.  Wait a minute--------Chippewa--hey they can't say that, can they?

Wow, 47 games undefeated in the Big Rivers is an unbelieveable accomplishment.  I feel quite proud that I was part of the last Big Rivers team to beat Menomonie way back in the day in Rice Lake.  Congrats to Chippewa Falls on being able to knock off the always dominant Menomonie.

I wonder if Whitewater could ever come close to that accomplishment?  Somehow I doubt it, WIAC is a little more competitive than the Big Rivers.

[janesvilleflash]

If anyone is interested, you can vote for division 3 coach of the year at this site.
http://coachoftheyear.com/Default.aspx

[Thunderbolt]

  As a Norwegian, I probably would have taken offense to nicknames like the Vikings, the Norse, the Oles, had it not been for forty plus years of reading Hagar The Horrible and the endless Ole and Lena yokes.

[bgbacker]

Stoutguy -

I think you called me a "rockhead" at the luncheon yesterday ... but otherwise nobody has.

Rico21 -

I remember listening to a radio broadcast of an Augusta girls' BB game where the announcer recapped the first half by saying "the Beaver shots just aren't there tonight." 

[Sakman 1111]

Since we are on nicknames.....What is a BluGold? Animal? Vegetable? Mineral?....

[KitchenSink]

Since we are on nicknames.....What is a BluGold? Animal? Vegetable? Mineral?....

They start out as a BluGyoung, and then like the sand in an hour glass, the inevitability of time comes upon them .....

[Warhawk 96]

Since we are on nicknames.....What is a BluGold? Animal? Vegetable? Mineral?....

I belive it is a bird.

[OshDude]

Florida State and McMurry are two examples of the right way.  They have worked closely with the Native Americans they represent and include them closely in they manner in which they display their traditions.

My last post on the subject. I promise.

FSU has often been credited with doing the right thing. Here are a few links that offer a different opinion on the matter.

A mascot resolution signed by five Native leaders, including the Seminole Nation Principal Chief:

http://aistm.org/fr.2001.civilized.tribes.htm

And these are taken from http://aistm.org/1indexpage.htm (Toward the bottom of the page):

-As of a 2005 published report, in the school's 154-year history only three members of the Seminole Tribe have graduated from FSU.

-There are actually three Seminole tribes in Florida and only one tribal government - the one which uses the name "Seminole Tribe of Florida" - has formally signed on to the use of the mascot.

The site offers other damaging facts that say FSU is not doing the right thing. I chose those two to pique everyone's interest. The site also offers many links to documents and current news stories related to the mascot struggle – at FSU and around the country.

Thanks for the understanding, tolerating a differing opinion and/or showing restraint out of respect in your postings. Like I wrote before, I feel very strongly about this issue. You may not, but I appreciate anyone who would take the time to at least read a few items from our side before forming a final opinion.

We're never going to resolve a societal debate on a football message board. Take a look at some of this stuff on your own. And no matter which side of the debate you choose, perhaps you'll get more involved.

I'm sure there are unique situations out there in which Natives have approved of mascots. I can't say I agree with that decision, but this country is great that way. We won't always agree. And in most cases, that's a good thing.

Oh, and a few final things. I hope you all had an unhappy Columbus Day  . And I pick Whitewater over Oshkosh, 24-7. Let's get back to the games, shall we?