FB: American Rivers Conference

[DustySJU]

Dutchfan2004,

Your son played a heck of a game Saturday.  Your OC obviously had a great game plan and 10 executed it to perfection.
There are a number of great photos of him at http://www.pictureprints.net/albums.php?gallery=1956

Thanks I have already looked at them and will be getting an order together.  Thanks for the kind words.

DutchFans all around;

It's taken me more than 48 hours to crawl back to this site with the proverbial Johnnie Football plastered up side my head, and well.... just wanted to say congratulations.

You Dutch thoroughly kicked our collective asses and believe me, we are hurtin'.

Your Dutch ran circles around our Johnnies and made us look silly in the process.

Crush Bethel.

Again, Congratulations!

Developing....

[Airborne Dutch]

Few thoughts:

Border War: Outstanding idea. I would be up for a dome and dome affair. Minnesota hosting teams play at the Metrodome. Iowa hosting teams play at the UNI Dome. It would certainly get a lot of interest and generate a lot of great press for D3 Football in both states.

Central announcer: When I played, it was very professional and accurate. So professional, that I can't recall any outrageous comments or remarks. Just the facts and thats the way it should be.

This past Saturday's game: SJU fans, you ran into a Central squad that has been the integral piece in the rebuilding of Central football. Things started to change in 2003, but you didn't see major changes until the 2004 season. Those changes being a new head coach, a new offense (most notably the discovery of the forward pass), a new strength and conditioning coach and program, a new field (technically came in 2006 but the plans started around 2004), and a new attitude. These guys realize that they don't have that much time left together and they are letting it all hang out. Sometimes, its just your year.

This upcoming Saturday's game: It has started to pop up and it was inevitable, but we cannot start looking to Mount Union. Bethel is numero uno priority. Our playoff run will come to a very quick end if we don't focus on the Royals.

[VOJ]

Re:  an IIAC - MIAC Border War.  Its a great idea.  What would it take to make that happen?

Many years ago, when I was living in Excelsior, Minnestoa ... I remember attending a UD - Bethel game in the Twin Cities.  

But more than that ... UD played in the Metrodome one year (I'm going to guess it was about '85 or '86) on a weekend (UD played at 3 p.m. on a Sunday afternoon) given over to MIAC teams playing teams from another Conference.  Since there was an odd # of teams, UD was invited to play Winona State (now a D-II team).

Based on this year's finishes ... it would be:

Bethel vs. Central
St. John's vs. Wartburg
St. Olaf vs UD (selected on the basis of their victory of Coe)
Concordia-Moorhead vs Coe
Augsburg vs. Luther
Gustavus Adolphus vs. BV
St. Thomas vs. Simpson
Carelton vs. Loras
Hamline vs. Cornell

Maybe we could get 4 games in Minnesota and 5 in Iowa one year ... and then the next year 5 in Minnesota and 4 in Iowa.

Oh well ...

Great idea...in fact last year before the Central/SJU matchup I spoke to the Cornell AD about just such a plan...but not everyone would like the matchups and no one wants to give up a home game, especially SJU which makes $$$$ on the great crowd support...so much like a DI playoff...it will never happen.

[D1HawkD3CUI]

Few thoughts:

Border War: Outstanding idea. I would be up for a dome and dome affair. Minnesota hosting teams play at the Metrodome. Iowa hosting teams play at the UNI Dome. It would certainly get a lot of interest and generate a lot of great press for D3 Football in both states.

Central announcer: When I played, it was very professional and accurate. So professional, that I can't recall any outrageous comments or remarks. Just the facts and thats the way it should be.

This past Saturday's game: SJU fans, you ran into a Central squad that has been the integral piece in the rebuilding of Central football. Things started to change in 2003, but you didn't see major changes until the 2004 season. Those changes being a new head coach, a new offense (most notably the discovery of the forward pass), a new strength and conditioning coach and program, a new field (technically came in 2006 but the plans started around 2004), and a new attitude. These guys realize that they don't have that much time left together and they are letting it all hang out. Sometimes, its just your year.

This upcoming Saturday's game: It has started to pop up and it was inevitable, but we cannot start looking to Mount Union. Bethel is numero uno priority. Our playoff run will come to a very quick end if we don't focus on the Royals.

I like the border war idea too.... good call

Our PA announcer is different this year and sometimes he will give more of  a play by play than the standard post-play dialogue. 9/10 plays he is fine but every once in a while it's a little much but not a big deal. I've heard similar comments made before and once I realized who was up there I felt kind of bad, he's a good guy.

Focus has to be 100% Bethel this week, absolutely. This team is too well coached to start looking ahead. Nothing is guranteed in the playoffs. The latest I heard, there is a chance for snow on Saturday. I would think that would actually favor Bethel with their style of play. Last week was some finesse, this week it's time to strap it up and hit somebody.

[DutchHawk]

The IIAC-MIAC border war would have huge implications on playoffs with them all being in region games and teams with 1 loss in the West struggling to get in a lot of the time with how deep of a region we are.

The Central announcer does leave something to be desired. I dont know who it is but I do remember thinking it wasnt great Saturday. I dont remember hearing an announcer when I played though, as would be expected.

This talk of Mount Union has got to stop. Bethel isnt going to roll over just because we beat on SJU. We have to come out and send a message to everyone else, last Saturday was not good enough. We must hit the Royals in the mouth from the start. As a very sane Mike Tyson said...everyone has a game plan until you punch them in the mouth. Come out, play fast, play physical...and most of all Leave No Doubt!!!

(Thanks Linfield...hope you dont mind us carrying your saying this year!

[sportsknight]

ANy other non Dutchers heading to Pella Saturday?
Let me know and I would like to meet up with you.

Let me know if you head this way on Saturday.  We can grab a burger and brew postgame and I'd still have you on the way back to the wife and kid before sundown.

Re:  an IIAC - MIAC Border War.  Its a great idea.  What would it take to make that happen?
Based on this year's finishes ... it would be:

Bethel vs. Central
St. John's vs. Wartburg
St. Olaf vs UD (selected on the basis of their victory of Coe)
Concordia-Moorhead vs Coe
Augsburg vs. Luther
Gustavus Adolphus vs. BV
St. Thomas vs. Simpson
Carelton vs. Loras
Hamline vs. Cornell

Why stop there?  Let's get the cheeseaters involved too.  Set it up a little like this:
WIAC #1 vs. MIAC/IIAC #1 (decided by which team goes farther in postseason...for the sake of the hypothetical lets say the IIAC)
MIAC #1 vs. WIAC #2
IIAC #2 vs. MIAC #2
WIAC #3 vs. IIAC #3
MIAC #3 vs. WIAC #4
and so on and so forth.

So going by this season's partial results, you'd have Whitewater vs. Central/Bethel, Central/Bethel vs. Eau Claire, Wartburg vs. St. John's, Oshkosh vs. Dubuque, St. Olaf vs. Steven's Point, Coe vs. Concordia, etc, etc, etc.

[TC]

Bah, I don't like it, especially if it means the Johnnies play one less home game or one of their "home" games is at the Metrodome. 

As much as we fans might like it, the top teams have no incentive to play other top teams for the non-conference schedule.  Let's say St. John's had to play Central rather than UW-River Falls for their second non-conference game this year.  If the Johnnies lose that game, the loss to Bethel later in the year knocks them out of the playoffs.  If the Johnnies win that game, it costs Central the #1 seed they ended up with and makes it much more difficult for the IIAC to get two teams into the playoffs.

Also, with 150+ players on the roster, no tackling in practice, positional battles, etc., being able to choose their non-conference opponent allows the Johnnie coaches to have some latitude over the level of competition they face while answering some pretty important questions.  If the Johnnies have to face the Dutch in the first game of the year, both teams lose a valuable opportunity to see if their second- or third-string players deserve a shot at more playing time.  It very realistically could weaken both teams for when the important part of the schedule--conference play and, hopefully, the playoffs--comes around.

[Old Dutch]

Also, with 150+ players on the roster, no tackling in practice, positional battles, etc., being able to choose their non-conference opponent allows the Johnnie coaches to have some latitude over the level of competition they face while answering some pretty important questions.  If the Johnnies have to face the Dutch in the first game of the year, both teams lose a valuable opportunity to see if their second- or third-string players deserve a shot at more playing time.  It very realistically could weaken both teams for when the important part of the schedule--conference play and, hopefully, the playoffs--comes around.

So does this mean the "winning with no" philosophy has some negative impact on the program?  I don't mean to jump on a great discussion here, but if thats the reason you can' t play a contender in week one or two at what point do "wnning with no" teams run out of potential opponents?  Or do we just count on 3-7 teams (Marrietta and River Falls) always trying to earn an upset bid? 

[TC]

Also, with 150+ players on the roster, no tackling in practice, positional battles, etc., being able to choose their non-conference opponent allows the Johnnie coaches to have some latitude over the level of competition they face while answering some pretty important questions. If the Johnnies have to face the Dutch in the first game of the year, both teams lose a valuable opportunity to see if their second- or third-string players deserve a shot at more playing time.  It very realistically could weaken both teams for when the important part of the schedule--conference play and, hopefully, the playoffs--comes around.

So does this mean the "winning with no" philosophy has some negative impact on the program?  I don't mean to jump on a great discussion here, but if thats the reason you can' t play a contender in week one or two at what point do "wnning with no" teams run out of potential opponents?  Or do we just count on 3-7 teams (Marrietta and River Falls) always trying to earn an upset bid? 

Ha, no, but I love the conclusions you guys jump to. 

St. John's doesn't hit in practice because they don't want to get players needlessly injured.  It doesn't matter if they're preparing for Marietta or Macalester or Mount Union.  As a Central fan, you have to know how discouraging it is to see a talented player on the sidelines because of injury.  This is what the Johnnies do to minimize those injuries. 

St. John's doesn't practice calisthenics during practice because they feel their time is better spent practicing plays.  They understand that no matter how precise a team's pregame routine is, it doesn't mean jack if they don't know what to do once the whistle blows and they have to break the huddle.

None of these, or any of the other "No's" that get blown out of proportion, have anything to do with the teams that St. John's schedules for its non-conference games.  I'm sure the coaches have certain things they are trying to accomplish in their non-conference games, and they schedule opponents accordingly.  This isn't something that is unique to St. John's or that has anything to do with "Winning with No's".

Every team has a certain set of criteria for who they schedule.  For some coaches, what they want to accomplish is to have their team play against the best as something of a measuring stick, to show their players where they need to be to be successful.  I'm assuming this is how teams like Mount Union, St. John's and Central find their non-conference opponents--no one likes to schedule a sure loss, but often times those games are necessary to get a team to the next level (or show them what the next level is like, even if they never make the jump).

You can imply that UW-River Falls and Marietta, at 3-7, are nothing but cupcakes if you'd like, but it's important to remember that St. John's chose to play non-conference foes from the two toughest conferences in the country when they just as easily could have scheduled UMAC or MWC teams for those slots.  For what it's worth, I think both UW-RF and Marietta would finish in the middle of either the IIAC or MIAC.  Let's not try to paint this as big, bad St. John's picking on hapless teams.

[Old Dutch]

I would agree those two are not exactly Alma and Northwestern.  All schools do what they have to do.  I just find it hard to buy into the "winning with no" campaign.  After seeing the interactions with Coach G at the game Saturday I think Dutchhawk brings up a good point.  By the way, did you notice the Dutch head man calling the offensive plays, I've seem more head guys do that than take the inactive approach on the sideline.

Now don't go gettin' yer underwear in a bundle.  A guy doesn't coach fo 50 years + and win like a gazillion games without some awesome talent.  He is the man in DIII football. 

[OzJohnnie]

TC - you put way to much effort into that response.  I would have just conceded the argument.

* Gagliardi is a complete fake and "Winning with No's", despite it's demonstrable success, is a nefarious marketing ploy

* St John's plays only cupcakes.  In fact, we are actively petitioning for BU and CM to switch places with Crown and someone else from the NWC

* The lack of hitting in practice is actually designed to reduce injuries to finger nails and such since the nearest nail shop is on the east side of St Cloud and many of the players don't have enough gas money for weekly manicure excursions

* SJU wears only white and red on their football uniforms because the players all have blue lacy undies already


Oh, and I note that the Dutch supporters are remarkably consistent in their call for the border war.  I remember the same call going out last year after they were stomped, just like this year when they did the stomping.  There's nothing like the euphoric blindness of recent success to stimulate wanton braggadocio.

(And no, the sly attempt by sportsnight to rank the MIAC third in a conference three way didn't go unnoticed.  But like the spider trekking across the path in front of you, sometimes you can't be bothered squishing it.)

[retagent]

Hey Old Dutch - Do you have trouble buying into the concept of gravity too?

[OzJohnnie]

I would agree those two are not exactly Alma and Northwestern.  All schools do what they have to do.  I just find it hard to buy into the "winning with no" campaign.  After seeing the interactions with Coach G at the game Saturday I think Dutchhawk brings up a good point.  By the way, did you notice the Dutch head man calling the offensive plays, I've seem more head guys do that than take the inactive approach on the sideline.

Now don't go gettin' yer underwear in a bundle.  A guy doesn't coach fo 50 years + and win like a gazillion games without some awesome talent.  He is the man in DIII football. 

I don't get your point here, OD.  You want to argue he's useless, or at least apparently to your eyes, but then concede he has had great results so he must not be useless after all.

It's not the fact that you say Gagliardi is useless that I'm confounded by, but your complete inability to back it up with anything other than your personal and limited observation that you concede, in an indirect way, do not jibe with reality.  Regardless you stick to your limited personal observation.

Your argument, that he is a figurehead, is baseless and unsubstantiated - no matter how much you want to believe it.

I'm with TC - I hope both teams lose.

[sfury]

As for Gagliardi's philosophies, doesn't he always say "We're not looking for converts." If opponents think Winning with No doesn't work or Gagliardi's just a figurehead, John's probably happy about that. I mean, really, the results speak for themselves. I don't know how there could even be any arguing about it, but who knows. They don't seem to work very well for Mike Grant at Eden Prairie, either. Speaking of Bud's kid, he didn't  have a headset on during the MN state finals on Saturday, and from what I saw, it didn't look like he was interacting except with the officials. He must be a figurehead too. It's also telling that Grant's said he patterns himself more after Gagliardi, and not his Hall of Fame dad.

[OzJohnnie]

Six state championships, included back-to-back this year.  Perfect record in the championship game, actually, at 6-0.  All with "Winning with No's".  You're right, sfury.  Can't work.