FB: American Rivers Conference

[Alfredeneumann]

I would hope every student's college experience would be as good as ol' Walston's. To be a starter and part of a successful athletic team, to be involved in a musical group and preform in front of 8000 people in a 5 day period and to tour abroad with that group. To meet and keep a good group of core friends. To have a major in which you really enjoy. And to top it off by meeting the "love of your life". I doubt there could have much that could have made his experience any better. I can vouch that I never considered home to  be an arrogant SOB.

[DutchFan2004]

As for UD's cupboard being bare... weren't there the same concerns after Walner Belleus graduated?  I'm sure the same pipeline that has gotten amazing talent like Belleus and Jackson into UD will continue to pump talent into eastern Iowa (and yes... I know Walner was via UofI).  I think UD has built itself into at WORST a mid-tier IIAC team and I don't foresee them dropping back to the abyss that they were in not so long ago!

Holy smokes...someone else thinks the same way I do regarding the Spartans 

Things can change, coaches leave or what not.  I think UD is in for a stretch where they might contend for a conference title every now and then and on their down years they fall within a game either way of .500  we will see but that's how I see it.  Remember, it's really the last 20 years that Dbq REALLY got bad.  If you take away the last 20 years and look at the conference at that time the Spartans had winning overall records against Wartburg, Simpson, Upper Iowa, William Penn, I think Loras and they weren't too far away from .500 against other teams...except Central 

Ok, getting off my UD soap box.  Just nice to see someone other than a Spartan fan taking a look at them and seeing the positive steps they are taking and not thinking it is just a fluke of having 1 great player there. 

I don't want to be casting doubts on UD or any other program.  UD has questions to be answered.  I guess I am a wait and seer on that.  IMO we have to wait and see if Central replaces their losses.  Same with most teams. 

[Klopenhiemer]

OK, so I've been gone a few days, but this conspiracy theory stuff about Wartburg taking their roster down after the season is something completely made up by someone trying to discredit what Koehler and boys have done and are trying to do.
Facts are Wartburg had 143 guys on the team this year and the roster, like it has every year since at least 1999 (when we had somewhere around 100 players), was taken down immediately after the season. Its all about looking toward the future and at the end of the year, the roster isn't accurate anyway.
If Koehler was trying to hide something, the coaches on the recruiting trail wouldn't be giving a program to all the kids they approach. If a kid has a question about who or how many kids WERE on the roster the last year, its right in front of him.
Its been said time and time again on here, and look at the successful programs in D3, the formula for success is numbers.
I know every kid that comes to camp at Wartburg now is given the opportunity to win a spot, and no one is guaranteed anything, whether the kid be new or a 3 time returning starter.
I personally was from a great HS program and had to put my time in there just to be all-district my senior year. I was fully expecting and prepared to wait 3 years to play at Wartburg, fortunately, or unfortunately for some guys, there were some injuries and I was able to beat out some guys and only wait 1 year. That almost backfired on me my senior year when a very talented freshman came in that pushed me for playing time, but it sure made me a lot better and more focused player that year.
How long does the bit about "being the class that turns it around" work? 3, 4 years for a coach? I can't imagine any longer than that. At some point kids are going to realize its a mediocre program and mediocre players are playing there.
Me personally, I'd rather play for a proven winner. I always have, and always plan to coach a winner. I was brought up being taught to be the best and if you weren't, you better put the necessary things in place to at least be in a position to be the best.
Shouldn't be any surprise to anyone that Wartburg and Central were my final 2 choices, and I almost became a Dutchman, but something about Wartburg felt right. I will always be happy with my decision (2 conference titles, winning record against every team in the conference except .500 against Coe, and graduated as the winningest football class in school history (at the time)).
If I were an elite D3-type student-athlete right now, I think those would still be the only places I looked, although I might actually listen to a Coe coach (as much as I don't like Coe, I have to respect them for what Raeburn has accomplished the last 7 years).

Thank you for reinforcing my point.  The "class that turns it around bit" obviously hasn't worked yet, so I'm sure that the coaches will continue using it until it does.  BV typically has a recruiting class of around 30 kids, and since numbers are the key to winning, how could we possibly be a conference contender with such low numbers?  BV came close to having that class in this year's seniors, but a few guys that would have made a big difference quit or transferred.  What else is a coach supposed to say?  "Hey kid, I see you're not good enough to go anywhere else, so come play for us," isn't something that will attract a lot of kids.  The best season in recent memory was '04, and we managed to piss a chance at the playoffs and a conference title down our leg.  Replace one guy on the o-line and I'm sure that season turns out differently.   

Expecting and wanting to win are not unique attributes.  Nobody goes to BV or Cornell because they want to lose.  As sportsknight said before, it's a difference in philosophy.  You think I'm stupid and a poor football player for going to BV.  I think you're arrogant and and gutless because you went somewhere you could win, regardless of whether you contributed on the field.   It sucked losing, but in the grand scheme of things it probably made me a better person for having to deal with disappointment instead of sheltering myself from losing by hiding out in the crowd at Wartburg or Central.   

I don't think WH hid in the crowd at WB.  Every player on a successful team's roster has a say in what goes on during the season.  The practice squad guys have to hold their own SOMEWHAT to get the 1st and 2nd stringers ready for what lies ahead.  To say that going to WB or Central gives anyone the ability to hide in a crowd, you are being absolutely ridiculous.  It takes a special breed of person to want to go in and have the "target" inherited on their back.  It takes one type of person to go into a program being a missile seeking those targets... and maybe the thrill of a tight game or even an upset once in a while gives them hope.  It takes an entirely different breed to continue the legacy and knock those missiles out when they are coming from every direction.

As for Coe being a contender... they have every right to lay that claim... just as much as WB.  Before the late '90s, Central was it for IIAC football on a year-in year-out basis.  WB has established itself as being a dominant force in the conference for the last decade... and maybe the last 5 years have overshadowed how close of a competitor Coe really is. 

Squared.  I do not know if it takes a special breed of person to go to a school and have a target on your back.  I find it hard to think that a kid making a decision would sit down and think wow, if I go to WB everyone will want to beat me.  I think it takes a special person to go to Cornell, BV, or Loras and take an honest look at the program and a honest look at the coaches stance on preperation.  If you believe in that then success will come.  I went to BV because I really liked the way the coaching staff protrayed the school and there preperation to win ball games.  Plus they had a poster inside the coaches office that said "reach for the ring".  I asked when the last time BV had been on top and they said the mid 70's.  I instantly thought about playing on a piss pore high school team and the thought of achieving the goal of getting the ring.  Now as BOY said we never did and pissed the only real chance down our leg.  Another thing I hope kids will consider is if the coaching staff will take care of them once their football days are done.  To many kids get hurt and can not play anymore and the coaches throw them off the bus and go find new talent.  That is one thing I can say from personally experiece BV did not do to me.  
As a recent article on Bob Sandards stated on ESPN, Bob brought a whole new attitude to the Iowa Hawkeye football team.  Winning might come from numbers, but winning also comes from kids being able to see past the scout team all americans and realize they are making them better.  My biggest pet peave was a scout teamer going hard and playing fair and the starter cussing him because he made him look bad.  That is the mentallity that holds teams back from winning chamipionships.  I firmly believe you could win a national title with 50 talented, right minded kids.  Having 143 on the roster only proves you have 70 to 80 kids who should be washing jock straps instead of playging football.  

[Walston Hoover]

 I firmly believe you could win a national title with 50 talented, right minded kids.  Having 143 on the roster only proves you have 70 to 80 kids who should be washing jock straps instead of playging football.  

True. Technically, that's the travel squad. If Mount Union could cut and all they kept was their top 50 players, they would still win. No way a team who only has 50 guys total wins a title. It would take an absolutely perfect circumstance.
As for the 70-80 kids comment, I'd say the number is more like 20-30 kids who , athletically wise, have no business being on the field.

[Klopenhiemer]

 I firmly believe you could win a national title with 50 talented, right minded kids.  Having 143 on the roster only proves you have 70 to 80 kids who should be washing jock straps instead of playging football.  

True. Technically, that's the travel squad. If Mount Union could cut and all they kept was their top 50 players, they would still win. No way a team who only has 50 guys total wins a title. It would take an absolutely perfect circumstance.
As for the 70-80 kids comment, I'd say the number is more like 20-30 kids who , athletically wise, have no business being on the field.

I can see your logic and agree with you on a certian level. 

[Walston Hoover]

I just noticed you're earlier typo.  You said playging football. Plaguing football is what some of the kids are doing.
DSquared-I haven't had the plague in a while, Have you?

[Purple Heys]

This is the kind of debate that doesn't work well in turn based, written form...

The college choice for our son transcended the "who has the best football team" consideration.

Essentially, and equivalently in terms of school financing, everyone is a walk-on at the D3 level.

If playing football at a superior program to any IIAC team were a priority I could list 5 D1 schools where he could have walked on to and spent 4 years practicing...maybe even cracking the 2 deep at some point.  A few of which are CA state schools where in-state tuition is a whole lot cheaper than any IIAC school.  The only schools offering any athletic aid were schools he had no interest in attending, and I don't blame him, I wouldn't like those schools either.  Junior College was a short consideration...but it boiled down to this:  Football was secondary to what he was looking to get out of 4 years of college.  Cornell fit what he was looking for and as an added bonus he is still playing football.

The fact is we never even looked at the IIAC standings to make this choice.  As we were in the process of go/no go to Cornell; we looked at their football team's records and I told him, "Buddy, you are going to have to get used to not being on a winning team...this ain't Vista football anymore."  He said, "Well maybe I'll just get there and help teach them how to win."

Maybe I got my Dad-colored glasses on...but who would consider that kind of kid a loser?

[doolittledog]

You won't find many man enough to do it to his face Purple...that kid of yours is a big boy!!! 

[Purple Heys]

If I were an elite D3-type student-athlete right now...

See, this is a construct I don't understand and maybe it's because D3 in California is so not prominent.

What exactly is "an elite D3-type athlete"?

Out here "elite athletes" play D1 here or in other (mostly) Southwestern states...some go 1-AA and the rest go into the JUCO system because they had "issues".

What's left is what really wasn't wanted or at worst is undiscovered and goes to D3.  I just don't think they could be classified as elite...above average, yes.

[Purple Heys]

Again with Dad-colored glasses here...

I feel pretty confident in saying that my kid could play, and start, for any IIAC team next year and significantly contribute.

Not trying to bring a rain of negative k...I'm not saying he's better than so and so...I'm saying he is a good enough ballplayer to man the position more than competently for any given team.

It's just to answer the overgeneralization, that at this level of college athletic competition, to state that any kid that chooses to play on a last place team is a loser simply by his chioce to participate; and any kid is a winner on the upper tier teams by virtue of association there.

On a TOTALLY unrelated note; we're moving the family to Whitewater, WI  I hear they have a nice college there.  (j/k)   

[DutchFan2004]

PH,

If you were looking at WW why not Alliance OH 

[Walston Hoover]

PH, That's great if what you say about your son is true, Supposedly, that's what D3 sports is about. If it were truly about that. Coaching wouldn't be a full-time job, and coaches wouldn't recruit. Players wouldn't spend up to 10 or 12 hours a week in offseason workouts, and the teams would be made up solely of guys that come to a school, coaches find out who is there, and make up a football team of those kids. In reality, that's not the way it happens.
The "elite" D3 type athlete is the one who is a .1 second slow, 20 pounds lite, or an inch too small to play D1. In Iowa, the elites play D1 as well, but after that, I'd say the top talent that goes to D3's each year is just as good or better than the top talent that goes D2 out of this state. Its that level that I speak of.

[Purple Heys]

PH,

If you were looking at WW why not Alliance OH 

I like cheese.

I believe I am already on the record on this.  

[Floyd in Iowa City]

As for UD's cupboard being bare... weren't there the same concerns after Walner Belleus graduated?  I'm sure the same pipeline that has gotten amazing talent like Belleus and Jackson into UD will continue to pump talent into eastern Iowa (and yes... I know Walner was via UofI).  I think UD has built itself into at WORST a mid-tier IIAC team and I don't foresee them dropping back to the abyss that they were in not so long ago!

If you take away the last 20 years and look at the conference at that time the Spartans had winning overall records against Wartburg, Simpson, Upper Iowa, William Penn, I think Loras and they weren't too far away from .500 against other teams...except Central 

After losing the past two meetings, Luther now only leads Dubuque in the all-time series, 47-19-6 (per the Luther media guide).  

I'm thinking the Norse coaches before the last 20 years usually did pretty well against the Spartans.

Then again if you throw the last 15 years out I would think Luther would have a very nice record against almost everyone that was apart of the Iowa Conference at one time or another.  Central would be about the only team that I can think of that would have a winning record against the Norse, and the Luther record against the Dutch has really taken a beating since Edsel Schweizer retired about 30 years ago.

I also do not expect Dubuque to consistently fall back to the level they were at before these past few years.  However things change and success is hard to maintain.  That is why it is amazing what Central has been able to do in football and what Wartburg has been able to do in wrestling.

Simpson looked to me this year as a team that could be much better next year.

Loras was the program that makes me wonder about whether they are making progress or not.  The Duhawks surprised many people somewhat in 2006 (4-4) by being solid, but they played under preseason expectations in 2007 (1-7), 2005 (2-6), and 2004 (3-5).  I guess I think of Loras as more of a solid program than these past four seasons have shown.

If you get past Central, Wartburg, and Coe, it seems like it is very easy to go from some success like Simpson, Luther, and Loras had in recent years to 7th or 8th place and wondering what happened.  I guess Luther has had only one sub .500 conference finish in the last five years, but the Norse at this point are closer to Loras and Simpson than Coe.

[Walston Hoover]

As for UD's cupboard being bare... weren't there the same concerns after Walner Belleus graduated?  I'm sure the same pipeline that has gotten amazing talent like Belleus and Jackson into UD will continue to pump talent into eastern Iowa (and yes... I know Walner was via UofI).  I think UD has built itself into at WORST a mid-tier IIAC team and I don't foresee them dropping back to the abyss that they were in not so long ago!

If you take away the last 20 years and look at the conference at that time the Spartans had winning overall records against Wartburg, Simpson, Upper Iowa, William Penn, I think Loras and they weren't too far away from .500 against other teams...except Central 

After losing the past two meetings, Luther now only leads Dubuque in the all-time series, 47-19-6 (per the Luther media guide).  

I'm thinking the Norse coaches before the last 20 years usually did pretty well against the Spartans.

Then again if you throw the last 15 years out I would think Luther would have a very nice record against almost everyone that was apart of the Iowa Conference at one time or another.  Central would be about the only team that I can think of that would have a winning record against the Norse, and the Luther record against the Dutch has really taken a beating since Edsel Schweizer retired about 30 years ago.

I also do not expect Dubuque to consistently fall back to the level they were at before these past few years.  However things change and success is hard to maintain.  That is why it is amazing what Central has been able to do in football and what Wartburg has been able to do in wrestling.

Simpson looked to me this year as a team that could be much better next year.

Loras was the program that makes me wonder about whether they are making progress or not.  The Duhawks surprised many people somewhat in 2006 (4-4) by being solid, but they played under preseason expectations in 2007 (1-7), 2005 (2-6), and 2004 (3-5).  I guess I think of Loras as more of a solid program than these past four seasons have shown.

If you get past Central, Wartburg, and Coe, it seems like it is very easy to go from some success like Simpson, Luther, and Loras had in recent years to 7th or 8th place and wondering what happened.  I guess Luther has had only one sub .500 conference finish in the last five years, but the Norse at this point are closer to Loras and Simpson than Coe.

Yeah. Take out the last 20 years and ISU has a pretty good record against Iowa too.
20 years? I'd say 10-15 tops would be considered the "modern" era of college football. That's a pretty big chunk of history when we're only talking about 80-90 years in the first place.
Take out the last 20 years and I'm in grade school right now. A lot's changed.
I believe the year was 2000 when Wartburg went past Luther in the all-time record against each other.