FB: American Rivers Conference

[Klopenhiemer]

Lets face it the money in the real world is in the private industry, not education.  Sometimes I questioned the professors as to why they were teaching.  I heard the "I gave up a lucrative career in sales to accept this teaching position".  Where you really that good?  Or did you find that you could not cut in the real world, so hiding in education best fitted you as a person.  Its always easier to tell someone how to do something rather than going out and doing it yourself.

Disclaimer:  There are many educators nationwide who make a big impact on children/young adults futures.  Those people are not the educators as I described above. 

I'd say there's a certain measure of truth in this sentiment, Klop.  We had a couple of Communications profs at Wartburg that were far less proficient with the department's equipment than most of the sudents.  A big part of teaching (and many other professions) is credibility, and if you don't know more than your students, your credibility is shot.

Getting back to the admissions discussion, I think that without question, the most overrated component of a student's admissions "resume" is their class rank.  I had a 3.45 GPA in high school and was #15 in our class of 75.  We had 15 people that were 3.4 or higher, but #30 in the class barely pulled a 2.0.  Had my GPA been a quarter of a point lower, I only would have dropped like 5 places in class rank.  Besides that, if I went to West Dubuque instead of Cascade, my 3.45 would have put me around #40 in the class.  What does it matter how everyone else in my class did academically?  Because we had a top-heavy class GPA-wise, did that make me work harder to stay in that upper tier?  Hell no.

Nice post SK.  A popular phase of entrance requirements is the top half of your clas and blah blah blah on your ACT. 

I went to school that had a graduating class of 405 kids.  My 2.9 in high school was in the top 40%.  I had MANY friends fit into this top half catagory, only to fail miserably in college. 

[BeaverOfYore]

Lets face it the money in the real world is in the private industry, not education.  Sometimes I questioned the professors as to why they were teaching.  I heard the "I gave up a lucrative career in sales to accept this teaching position".  Where you really that good?  Or did you find that you could not cut in the real world, so hiding in education best fitted you as a person.  Its always easier to tell someone how to do something rather than going out and doing it yourself.

Disclaimer:  There are many educators nationwide who make a big impact on children/young adults futures.  Those people are not the educators as I described above. 

I'd say there's a certain measure of truth in this sentiment, Klop.  We had a couple of Communications profs at Wartburg that were far less proficient with the department's equipment than most of the sudents.  A big part of teaching (and many other professions) is credibility, and if you don't know more than your students, your credibility is shot.

Getting back to the admissions discussion, I think that without question, the most overrated component of a student's admissions "resume" is their class rank.  I had a 3.45 GPA in high school and was #15 in our class of 75.  We had 15 people that were 3.4 or higher, but #30 in the class barely pulled a 2.0.  Had my GPA been a quarter of a point lower, I only would have dropped like 5 places in class rank.  Besides that, if I went to West Dubuque instead of Cascade, my 3.45 would have put me around #40 in the class.  What does it matter how everyone else in my class did academically?  Because we had a top-heavy class GPA-wise, did that make me work harder to stay in that upper tier?  Hell no.

I totally agree with this.  I ended up ranked 12th in a class of 77 with a 3.9 GPA.  My high school wasn't full of super geniuses--the classes were just that easy.  Compare that with a high school with a rigorous curriculum full of AP courses, and you're comparing apples to oranges.  I ended up missing out on a full ride partially because of my class rank, even though my other numbers were more than adequate.  To me it's just asinine that so much emphasis is placed on something that is largely beyond the control of the individual student.

[The Show]

SK you words regarding the differnt type of students is pretty good.

I do see some holes in the system in general.  I think we come to many stark conclusion based upon ACT scores and GPA's coming out of high school.  I also think that we as employers/management put a little to much stake in the whole college GPA thing as well. 

I was a 20 ACT kid who sported at 2.9 in high school.  I was also a 2.7 kid at BV.  I did not learn to spell as many of you have seen

I will stand on soap box on this for a minute.  College is about preparing students for lives as productive adults.  As BVU says "Education for service".  I have close friends who fared far better than me grade wise, who are not achieving the levels of success they thought they would once they left the hallowed halls of BV.  There are other kids like myself who moved through the system niether underachieving or overachieving who are successful, more so than a lot of others. 

I would add the kid who has the street smarts and real world savy to this equation as well.  You can not teach a kid who questions the non compete contract they are given the first day on the job.  You cant teach a kid to go get something either.  That has to come from within.  You can also not place a value on OJT (on the job training), and mentoring.  This is where real learning takes place.  Just because you know what FAB (Features, Advantages, and Benefits) means, does not mean you know how to market financial solutions to people aged 30-65.  You had to have someone guide you into what types of products these people where buying, and then you could apply the FAB principal. 

Lets face it the money in the real world is in the private industry, not education.  Sometimes I questioned the professors as to why they were teaching.  I heard the "I gave up a lucrative career in sales to accept this teaching position".  Where you really that good?  Or did you find that you could not cut in the real world, so hiding in education best fitted you as a person.  Its always easier to tell someone how to do something rather than going out and doing it yourself.

Disclaimer:  There are many educators nationwide who make a big impact on children/young adults futures.  Those people are not the educators as I described above. 

You're lucky for the disclaimer Klop or Mrs. Show may have come after you!  Those elementary teachers can be pretty ferocious!     However, you make a couple very valid points.  Although I don't technically teach any classes, I'm in the education world, but I didn't learn 1/2 of the stuff I know now until I had my internship and some on the job training.  I do get questioned quite a bit though why I hang around the education world instead of going out and making the big bucks...

[OzJohnnie]

I totally agree with this.  I ended up ranked 12th in a class of 77 with a 3.9 GPA.  My high school wasn't full of super geniuses--the classes were just that easy.  Compare that with a high school with a rigorous curriculum full of AP courses, and you're comparing apples to oranges.  I ended up missing out on a full ride partially because of my class rank, even though my other numbers were more than adequate.  To me it's just asinine that so much emphasis is placed on something that is largely beyond the control of the individual student.

Although it has been quite a while, I seem to remember that it wasn't class rank but percentage placement that counted.  Top 10%, top 5%, etc.  That way, assuming students across schools represent a basically similar distribution of capability, the various differences (again assuming they are not significant) in course availability and difficulty cancel out.

Slightly more important than class rank, however, was a candidate's performance on standardized testing.  All the extra curricular stuff was there, as I recall, to supplement applications that fell short on the primary comparisons.

[BeaverOfYore]

I totally agree with this.  I ended up ranked 12th in a class of 77 with a 3.9 GPA.  My high school wasn't full of super geniuses--the classes were just that easy.  Compare that with a high school with a rigorous curriculum full of AP courses, and you're comparing apples to oranges.  I ended up missing out on a full ride partially because of my class rank, even though my other numbers were more than adequate.  To me it's just asinine that so much emphasis is placed on something that is largely beyond the control of the individual student.

Although it has been quite a while, I seem to remember that it wasn't class rank but percentage placement that counted.  Top 10%, top 5%, etc.  That way, assuming students across schools represent a basically similar distribution of capability, the various differences (again assuming they are not significant) in course availability and difficulty cancel out.

Slightly more important than class rank, however, was a candidate's performance on standardized testing.  All the extra curricular stuff was there, as I recall, to supplement applications that fell short on the primary comparisons.

You're right, but what I was getting at was that there were about 20 kids with GPAs separated by only thousandths of a point in a class of 77.  It was preferred that a student be in the top 15% to get the full ride--I was in the top 15.6%.  To move up one spot in class rank, I would've only had to improve my GPA by 2 thousandths of a point.  That would have put me in the top 14.2% and thus made me more likely to receive the full scholarship.  I don't think I got screwed or anything.  I'm just saying that class rank probably means less in my high school than it would have in some other schools and is a poor way to assess academic capability.  I know of very small high schools (think 20 kids per class) that had a good class with 4 kids getting above 30 on their ACTs and all sporting nearly perfect GPAs.  In that situation, a kid with a 33 ACT and a 3.98 GPA who is ranked fourth in their class could miss out on some great scholarships because of their class size more than any other factor.

[Klopenhiemer]

SK you words regarding the differnt type of students is pretty good.

I do see some holes in the system in general.  I think we come to many stark conclusion based upon ACT scores and GPA's coming out of high school.  I also think that we as employers/management put a little to much stake in the whole college GPA thing as well. 

I was a 20 ACT kid who sported at 2.9 in high school.  I was also a 2.7 kid at BV.  I did not learn to spell as many of you have seen

I will stand on soap box on this for a minute.  College is about preparing students for lives as productive adults.  As BVU says "Education for service".  I have close friends who fared far better than me grade wise, who are not achieving the levels of success they thought they would once they left the hallowed halls of BV.  There are other kids like myself who moved through the system niether underachieving or overachieving who are successful, more so than a lot of others. 

I would add the kid who has the street smarts and real world savy to this equation as well.  You can not teach a kid who questions the non compete contract they are given the first day on the job.  You cant teach a kid to go get something either.  That has to come from within.  You can also not place a value on OJT (on the job training), and mentoring.  This is where real learning takes place.  Just because you know what FAB (Features, Advantages, and Benefits) means, does not mean you know how to market financial solutions to people aged 30-65.  You had to have someone guide you into what types of products these people where buying, and then you could apply the FAB principal. 

Lets face it the money in the real world is in the private industry, not education.  Sometimes I questioned the professors as to why they were teaching.  I heard the "I gave up a lucrative career in sales to accept this teaching position".  Where you really that good?  Or did you find that you could not cut in the real world, so hiding in education best fitted you as a person.  Its always easier to tell someone how to do something rather than going out and doing it yourself.

Disclaimer:  There are many educators nationwide who make a big impact on children/young adults futures.  Those people are not the educators as I described above. 

You're lucky for the disclaimer Klop or Mrs. Show may have come after you!  Those elementary teachers can be pretty ferocious!     However, you make a couple very valid points.  Although I don't technically teach any classes, I'm in the education world, but I didn't learn 1/2 of the stuff I know now until I had my internship and some on the job training.  I do get questioned quite a bit though why I hang around the education world instead of going out and making the big bucks...

That exactly why I put the disclaimer.  One I have had some great teachers, two I coutless others who have had great teachers, and three I did not want to offend the people who are education on this board.  

The private industry isnt always the answer either.  A lot of people think my father is nuts.  He left being a superitendent for a large commercial construction company to teach construction at a high school in DM.  He wanted to bring kids into the industry because their is a shortage in organized labor, and young people joining the unions and being properly trained.  He took quite a bit of a pay cut, but he feels like hes doing more, and make more of an impact.  

[BB]

You guys are right on concerning the class rank...it makes no sense to punish a kid for being in a class with an overwhelming number of "smart" kids.

Also, GPA is kind of deceptive when trying to measure a kids future success.  For one, schools can have different grading scales.  It may be a lot harder to get a 3.2 at school A compared to a 3.2 at school B.   Second, many students concerned soley on their GPA may not take more difficult classes in high school (calc, physics).  Also, many students struggle with the transition to high school therefore their freshman/sophomore grades are bad...bringing their overall GPA down for their entire high school career.

[the_mayne_event]

I think, with their recent success, Coe would not look down on losing to UD as much as losing to Cornell (sorry but it's true)

p.s.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3276034

lets all give a warm welcome to mr rogers (aaron that is)

[youcantseemestill]

Probably not so much acceptance as financial aid.

OK....who makes the decision on the amount/form of aid?

Well four years ago when the process started my son went to the scholarship days at Wartburg and Central.  He had interviews with current students and profs.  From there I think the results went before a committee if I am not wrong and they decided how much FA he was awarded.  I am sure the coaching staff had some imput on it as well but I believe his grades and ACT scores had an effect as well as the interview. 

I can tell you that coaches have no pull in how much finanical aid award is given through the scholarhsip competitions.  The faculties of the competition area (like Buisness, Physics, Music, etc....) make reccommendations to the Financial Aid staff as to who deserves the highest awards and then they break down the remaining money allocated for each competition from there. 

[youcantseemestill]

I think Coach Staker is a great hire.  Again, I applaud the Coe faithful who knew what was going on for maintaining their close-lipped approach.  Even though it is hard at times.  I want to re-state that I believe the coaching staff was going to remain in place regardless of who was brought in as the head coach.  The feeling is, this was made clear to the candidates during the interview process.  All of the staff might not have stayed on after the decision was made, but that was not going to be directed by the new coach. 

[youcantseemestill]

You guys are right on concerning the class rank...it makes no sense to punish a kid for being in a class with an overwhelming number of "smart" kids.

Also, GPA is kind of deceptive when trying to measure a kids future success.  For one, schools can have different grading scales.  It may be a lot harder to get a 3.2 at school A compared to a 3.2 at school B.   Second, many students concerned soley on their GPA may not take more difficult classes in high school (calc, physics).  Also, many students struggle with the transition to high school therefore their freshman/sophomore grades are bad...bringing their overall GPA down for their entire high school career.

Great point.  Also, I want to add that schools look at academic GPA more than overall GPA.  Meaning non-academic classes such as PE, Fine Arts courses (music, band, art), most Sociology classes, and a few others are thrown out of the equation when considering acceptance based on GPA.  For instance, if a kid is on the bubble of being accepted with a 2.9, 20.......the academic GPA will be computed and if it comes back as a 2.5, the kid is in trouble. 

[youcantseemestill]

Finally, after a nice weekend in warmer temps, I am finally caught up with the activity on the board.......still have some work to do on the basketball board though.  I am not one to complain about grammer/spelling on a message board, however, I do have two grammatical pet peeves that I need to get out there......

1) "a lot" is two words people! 
2)  when used to describe a place, it is "there"............when used to describe people, it is "their"

[TheOne89.1]

p.s.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3276034

lets all give a warm welcome to mr rogers (aaron that is)

FINALLY!!!!  As a Bears fan having lived in WI for a few years and now just across the river from there, it's good to see him gone.  What the hell is John Madden gonna talk about now?  Maybe we will see him retire now.

[TheOne89.1]

On the topic of GPA and ACT/SAT and class rank, etc.  I'm sure we can all agree that once you get into the real world, it doesn't mean squat.  It meant some getting into college, but personally I came from a small class (36) and finished first in ranking with a just below 4.0 GPA...but I never really remembering having to bust my balls, because of the fact that everything was being taught on an even level.  I took all the chemistry, physics, calculus, trig., etc. etc. classes...but there were plenty of middle ranked and lower in those classes as well.  They had to be there if we wanted to keep offering them.  Had I gone to a bigger school with 100+ per class, I am sure those classes would have been more difficult.

Now looking at college, as a Comm. Arts major I joke I didn't spend much time studying, mainly because I spent more time in the edit bays and radio studio getting hands on experience.  My first job out of college, I had a HUGE advantage because I knew how to use a professional video camera and had directed a newscast before...they didn't care that I got a 3.5 GPA in History of the Old Testament or Intro to Comm. Arts.

[BB]

Favre's announcement  means the entire state of Wisconsin has now been placed on suicide watch...