FB: American Rivers Conference

[the_mayne_event]

This flies in the face of the notion of "Winners never cheat and Cheaters never win" (SCIAC is the exeption that makes the rule).  I'm sure many arguements could be made as to why this is or even explanations of why some teams always seem to do better than others, but here's my take on it.

I disagree - "If ya ain't cheatin, ya ain't tryin"

As far as holding and everything, there is a holding penalty on every play, its just whether the offensive linemen is good enough to not get caught.

[warthog]

Infractions of the rules may cause a team to be penalized.  I'm not sure that is necessarily cheating.  

If early in the game, I'm willing to accept a 15 yard penalty for running over a punt returner signaling for a fair catch  , is that cheating?  

Perhaps in my logic, I feel there is a chance I will get more than fifteen yards back later in the game when the returner lets a ball bounce instead of catching it.  That may be dirty and unsportmanlike, but if I'm willing to accept the consequences it might not be cheating.  

Editorial comment: This message has not been endorsed by the current or any past Wartburg Athletic Department or Football Coaching staff.  

[doolittledog]

Sooooooo, cheating is what got Central and Warty to the top of the conference

[hazzben]

The West will get one Pool C bid which will go to St. Thomas unless they lose to Bethel, then it will go to Coe if they win out. If St. Thomas and Coe both lose the Pool C bid will go to the second place WIAC even if they have two losses. If USWP loses a close one to UWW they will go with three losses.  Aszuza Pacific in not going to hurt them as a loss and their other two will be close losses to the top two teams being their other loss is a one pointer to Central.  

St. Norberts has NO chance of making the playoffs.

I disagree.  If St. Thomas, Coe and UWSP lose and UWW wins out, I think Bethel has a good shot @ the pool C.  No way does a 3 loss UWSP team make the playoffs.  You can say all you want that their APU loss doesn't hurt the pointers, but I don't see it.  Yeah, technically, only DIII games count.  But when you already have 2 losses, any other loss, even against a non DIII is gonna hurt.  Not to mention, even if the committee ignored the loss, they would still have the same number of losses as Bethel, to the similar quality of competition, but Bethel would have 1 more win. 

Also, if UWW wins out, then I see little chance of the WIAC having any second place team with only 2 losses.  I just don't see Stout finishing unbeaten. 

As much as I don't think St. Norberts deserves to be in, if UST, Coe and UWSP all lose, I could definitely see them getting the nod over a team like Bethel or Willamette.  Not that I think St. Norberts would deserve it, but I could see it happening.

[Fannosaurus Rex]

Infractions of the rules may cause a team to be penalized.  I'm not sure that is necessarily cheating.  

If early in the game, I'm willing to accept a 15 yard penalty for running over a punt returner signaling for a fair catch  , is that cheating?  

Perhaps in my logic, I feel there is a chance I will get more than fifteen yards back later in the game when the returner lets a ball bounce instead of catching it.  That may be dirty and unsportmanlike, but if I'm willing to accept the consequences it might not be cheating.  

Editorial comment: This message has not been endorsed by the current or any past Wartburg Athletic Department or Football Coaching staff.  

Interesting topic.
The rules are there for two reasons I can think of, 1. to make the game safer and 2. to make the game more interesting.  Not blasting the guy making the fair catch, is one to make it safer.  I would always call deliberately breaking the rules that make the game safer dirty and unsportsmanlike.  I have to think about what I call deliberately and strategically breaking the rules that are supposed to make the game more interesting.

Everybody always says they don't want the refs to contribute to the outcome of the game but now that we have started this discussion, why wouldn't I not want players' skill at not getting caught by the refs to affect the outcome?  Or is not getting caught just another skill like being able to call signals that trick defensive linemen to jump offsides?  And before anyone asks, I never played and sure don't know what an offensive lineman can or can't do when breaking the holding rules that does or doesn't compromise anyone's safety.

[Voice of the Dutch]

Infractions of the rules may cause a team to be penalized.  I'm not sure that is necessarily cheating.  

If early in the game, I'm willing to accept a 15 yard penalty for running over a punt returner signaling for a fair catch  , is that cheating?  

Perhaps in my logic, I feel there is a chance I will get more than fifteen yards back later in the game when the returner lets a ball bounce instead of catching it.  That may be dirty and unsportmanlike, but if I'm willing to accept the consequences it might not be cheating.  

Editorial comment: This message has not been endorsed by the current or any past Wartburg Athletic Department or Football Coaching staff.  

Chances are you'll get kicked out of the game - at least that's what happened when some dirtbag did that in an NFL game either this weekend or last.

So, I don't think it would make the returner think twice, because he'll know that the asshole that made the dirty hit is out of the game and thus can't do it again.

[DutchFan2004]

As far as holding goes, there is holding on every play but that may not be an infraction.  The rule states that a playing must be guilty of holding and restricting a players movements.  So just grabbing of a jersey does not constitute holding.  If the playing is not being restricted there is no foul.  Also every ref is taught you must see the whole play.  If you do not see the start and finish you are taught not to throw a flag.  A play comes to mind if a blocker starts with a legal block never disengages from the other player (such as the player turning while being blocked) it can not be blocking in the back.  So if a ref only sees the end of the play he may make a bad call as he only sees the player being blocked in the back.  Also with only 7 refs looking at the field there is much to be missed.  Each ref has his assigned players or areas to be looking at.  If something happens and the ref does not see it it won't get called.  It doesn't mean that refs are ignoring the calls they just may not see the whole play or may have just missed it. 


Also in your analysis there is one thing that is not there.  How many penalties by the weaker team are declined?  There may be many penalties that are declined as they have no real affect on the game. 

If a team is way ahead they may not accept penalties as they may not be needed.  Or if a team feels they don't need them.  So to draw conclusions from this may or may not be valid. 

[coocooforcoekohawk]

If St. Thomas, Coe and UWSP lose and UWW wins out, I think Bethel has a good shot @ the pool C. 

Also, if UWW wins out, then I see little chance of the WIAC having any second place team with only 2 losses.  I just don't see Stout finishing unbeaten. 

As much as I don't think St. Norberts deserves to be in, if UST, Coe and UWSP all lose, I could definitely see them getting the nod over a team like Bethel or Willamette.  Not that I think St. Norberts would deserve it, but I could see it happening.

I think you are probably right about Bethel, the WIAC, and St. Norberts getting in even though they don't deserve it.

[DutchHawk]

If St. Thomas, Coe and UWSP lose and UWW wins out, I think Bethel has a good shot @ the pool C. 

Also, if UWW wins out, then I see little chance of the WIAC having any second place team with only 2 losses.  I just don't see Stout finishing unbeaten. 

As much as I don't think St. Norberts deserves to be in, if UST, Coe and UWSP all lose, I could definitely see them getting the nod over a team like Bethel or Willamette.  Not that I think St. Norberts would deserve it, but I could see it happening.

I think you are probably right about Bethel, the WIAC, and St. Norberts getting in even though they don't deserve it.

Gotta remember that all 1 loss and 2 loss (depending on how the season plays out) get pooled into the same group and teh best teams are then chosen from that nationwide. SNC would have to be the best 1 loss team nationwide to get in, do you think they will be?

[dutchfan1]

Infractions of the rules may cause a team to be penalized.  I'm not sure that is necessarily cheating.  

If early in the game, I'm willing to accept a 15 yard penalty for running over a punt returner signaling for a fair catch  , is that cheating?  

Perhaps in my logic, I feel there is a chance I will get more than fifteen yards back later in the game when the returner lets a ball bounce instead of catching it.  That may be dirty and unsportmanlike, but if I'm willing to accept the consequences it might not be cheating.  

Editorial comment: This message has not been endorsed by the current or any past Wartburg Athletic Department or Football Coaching staff.  

Typical response from a Wartburg backer.  Is dirty play still the norm in Waverly?

[warthog]

Typical response from a Wartburg backer.  Is dirty play still the norm in Waverly?

Didn't know it ever was.

[Old Dutch]

This flies in the face of the notion of "Winners never cheat and Cheaters never win" (SCIAC is the exeption that makes the rule).  I'm sure many arguements could be made as to why this is or even explanations of why some teams always seem to do better than others, but here's my take on it.

I disagree - "If ya ain't cheatin, ya ain't tryin"

As far as holding and everything, there is a holding penalty on every play, its just whether the offensive linemen is good enough to not get caught.

A wise old coach once said to me,  "Show me an All-American O-lineman, and I'll show you a guy good at holding."

[Old Dutch]

Infractions of the rules may cause a team to be penalized.  I'm not sure that is necessarily cheating.  

If early in the game, I'm willing to accept a 15 yard penalty for running over a punt returner signaling for a fair catch  , is that cheating?  

Perhaps in my logic, I feel there is a chance I will get more than fifteen yards back later in the game when the returner lets a ball bounce instead of catching it.  That may be dirty and unsportmanlike, but if I'm willing to accept the consequences it might not be cheating.  

Editorial comment: This message has not been endorsed by the current or any past Wartburg Athletic Department or Football Coaching staff.  

This is a poor example to illustrate your point and I think Rex defined the differences quite well.  Good teams need to be aggressive and if a lineman can get to the body of a d lineman and get his hands onto the shoulder pads there are many ways to be a more effective blocker that some may think of as holding.  (How's that for political correctness! ) 

When they changed blocking rules and allowed hand blocking they gave O-linemen a technique to neutralize many of the hand to hand techniques that d-line could use in those days.  I have heard of HS coaches still teaching flipper-style blocking and not taking advantage of the "open" hand blocking rules in order to reduce potential holding calls.   Any of you current coaches take to this particular strategy?

[the_mayne_event]

When they changed blocking rules and allowed hand blocking they gave O-linemen a technique to neutralize many of the hand to hand techniques that d-line could use in those days.  I have heard of HS coaches still teaching flipper-style blocking and not taking advantage of the "open" hand blocking rules in order to reduce potential holding calls.   Any of you current coaches take to this particular strategy?

I'm not a coach, but I think it would be stupid to teach blocking any other way. Except for a young age where you need to teach the importance of getting into the defender.

[Alfredeneumann]

WCF Courier Wartburg - Luther game
Wartburg (4-3, 3-2) at Luther (4-3, 3-2)

When: 1 p.m., Saturday

Where: Carlson Stadium (Decorah)

Radio: KWAR-FM (88.9), KWAY-AM (1470).

Last meeting: Wartburg won 14-0 in Waverly last season.

Last week: Wartburg marched past Dubuque, 41-14, while Luther toppled Buena Vista, 15-9.

What to watch: The Norse are 3-0 at home this year. This game features the Knights' high-powered pass offense against a Norse secondary that ranks first in the IIAC in pass defense. Luther has allowed only 186 pass yards a game this season, while Wartburg quarterback Nick Yordi has passed for 1,638 yards (234 per game). ... Luther LB Kyle McGivney was named IIAC defensive player of the week after recording 16 tackles (six solo) in the win over Buena Vista. And, by the way, he intercepted a pass in the end zone on the final play of the game. ... The Orange and Black hold a 36-29-1 advantage all-time including gaining wins in 17 of the last 18 contests. The lone Norse victory in that roll occurred in 2005 by a 33-24 count at Carlson Stadium. ...

Quoting Wartburg coach Rick Willis:

On Luther, "It is always challenging to play on the road and especially in rivalry games. It will be a great challenge for our team. Obviously if you look at the stats in their game from a week ago there was a pretty big difference in yardage. But what really counts is the points and the score at the end. They certainly have a knack of finding ways to win games and that is a good trait for a team to have. I think it will be a good classic rivalry game."

On Dubuque game, "We played solid in all three phases of the game. There are certainly some things we can improve on ... it's maybe the best we've done so far. Hopefully we can kind of use that as a springboard to move forward in the last part of the season."

Quoting Luther coach Mike Durnin:

On success at home, "Our players definitely enjoy playing at Carlson Stadium."

On the rivalry, "Right now we're preparing like any other week in terms of us getting better and working hard to become a more consisent football team."