FB: American Rivers Conference

[DoubleDomer]

And the comparison is not "state schools" to "private schools"--it's a particular conference within the population of all conferences.

[DoubleDomer]

Fine.  Sorry to so upset everybody's tidy notion of which direction is up and which is down. The numbers don't lie, but the cocks of the walk here are plainly made uncomfortable by what they don't understand.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Actually, no.  You'll find a small proportion of the NESCAC in top 10% of the Director's Cup--50%, to be precise, in the form of Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, and Tufts--that you will the WIAC. And, if you apply a norming formula that eliminates the NESCAC's huge advantage based on the number of teams they field, nobody stands anywhere near the WIAC.

May I ask this question:  Why is this so hard for everybody to accept? 

As a retired stat professor, I can't recall the last time I heard 50% referred to as "a small proportion"!

The 'particular conference' you have such an issue with (which apparently has NO intention of going anywhere else) is a target for improvement for other conferences (in SOME sports; in others, they are not even contenders).

I have no idea why you have such an animus towards the WIAC, but as a CCIW guy I really think you should stop inflicting it on the IIAC!

[Ralph Turner]

And the comparison is not "state schools" to "private schools"--it's a particular conference within the population of all conferences.

Double Domer,

Welcome to the boards!    

Back in 2006-08, Division III had an incredible self-study program in which it tried to define itself.  The funny thing about the whole "D-III/D-IV" question was which conferences were "invited" to be in one of the groups.

Among those in the NESCAC, Centennial, Iowa IAC, Minnesota IAC group as having common mission and vision was none other than ... the WIAC!

If the Presidents of those conference members had no problem considering splitting up D-III and inviting their friends to another classification, and identifying the WIAC as a peer conference and peer institutions, then I think that this debate is moot!

Here is the link to an analysis of the White Paper (which had 185 pages and lots of pictures in it).  The links may not be active since the "re-do" of the NCAA web page, but the veterans, my friends and colleagues who participated in that discussion, will remember it.

Post 822

[02 Warhawk]

Actually, no.  You'll find a small proportion of the NESCAC in top 10% of the Director's Cup--50%, to be precise, in the form of Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, and Tufts--that you will the WIAC. And, if you apply a norming formula that eliminates the NESCAC's huge advantage based on the number of teams they field, nobody stands anywhere near the WIAC.

May I ask this question:  Why is this so hard for everybody to accept?  

Because it's not accurate, Double D....give it a rest

[5 Words or Less]

DoubleDomer - Does WIAC overemphasize football?

[Pat Coleman]

Actually, no.  You'll find a small proportion of the NESCAC in top 10% of the Director's Cup--50%, to be precise, in the form of Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, and Tufts--that you will the WIAC. And, if you apply a norming formula that eliminates the NESCAC's huge advantage based on the number of teams they field, nobody stands anywhere near the WIAC.

May I ask this question:  Why is this so hard for everybody to accept? 

I just realized you're basing this solely on the fall season. That's ludicrous.

Here's last year's standings. Final. Full season.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nacda/sports/directorscup/auto_pdf/d3dcupjun23.pdf

1 Williams (Mass.) 1292.25
2 Amherst (Mass.) 905.75
3 Washington University (Mo.) 858.50
4 Middlebury (Vt.) 751.00
5 Illinois Wesleyan 704.25
6 Tufts (Mass.) 699.00
7 Wisconsin La Crosse 678.75
8 New Jersey, College of 677.75
9 Salisbury (Md.) 673.25
10 St. Thomas (Minn.) 670.25

[02 Warhawk]

Actually, no.  You'll find a small proportion of the NESCAC in top 10% of the Director's Cup--50%, to be precise, in the form of Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, and Tufts--that you will the WIAC. And, if you apply a norming formula that eliminates the NESCAC's huge advantage based on the number of teams they field, nobody stands anywhere near the WIAC.

May I ask this question:  Why is this so hard for everybody to accept? 

I just realized you're basing this solely on the fall season. That's ludicrous.

Here's last year's standings. Final. Full season.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nacda/sports/directorscup/auto_pdf/d3dcupjun23.pdf

1 Williams (Mass.) 1292.25
2 Amherst (Mass.) 905.75
3 Washington University (Mo.) 858.50
4 Middlebury (Vt.) 751.00
5 Illinois Wesleyan 704.25
6 Tufts (Mass.) 699.00
7 Wisconsin La Crosse 678.75
8 New Jersey, College of 677.75
9 Salisbury (Md.) 673.25
10 St. Thomas (Minn.) 670.25

That's it!!! I'm sick of these NESCAC schools dominating DIII. When are they going to move up to DII? It's about time to level the playing field here       

[Pat Coleman]

10 schools, three state schools. Right in line with the average.

[DoubleDomer]

Ypsi: And as an adjunct professor of writing, I can't recall the last time one of my undergraduates failed to recognize what was so plainly a typo that intended "smaller" rather than "small."  Or perhaps you'll explain to me now that 4 of 8 is not, indeed, a smallER portion than 5 of 9.  While you're at that, kindly offer some analysis of the meaningful point, which is the fraction adjusted for number of offerings & size of the competitive set in sports for which points are awarded--a case that, as I recall from having lurked here for some time, Ralph Turner once made quite plainly.

Pat Coleman: The numbers I quoted were YE2008-09 and YE2009-10.  I'm sure that even you can appreciate that YE2010-11 isn't available yet.  Still, the fall numbers have a mighty familiar look to them, and I'd be willing to bet everybody present $10 on how many schools the WIAC (and the NESCAC, for that matter) will have in the top 10% at year's end.  (Incidentally, Pat Coleman, "10%" and "10" signify different quantities when the antecedent reference is a set of 443.)  And the issue is not "state schools" vs. "non-state schools" any more than it is mammalian mascots vs. reptilian mascots.  The issue is size (and selectivity, and retention rate) of the undergraduate student body.

Ralph Turner: How did a rational fellow like you end up with a corner lot in Crazyville?  I appreciate your thoughtful remarks, and will indeed read the report you linked.  From the curb, the conclusion strikes me as a stretch; hard to see how conferences like the IIAC and MIAC, for example, with nearly a dozen Phil Beta Kappa institutions between them and tolerably dispersed student bodies, find common mission with regional teachers and quasi-technical colleges that are as parochial as the WIAC.  (The notion that the NESCAC has anything more in common with the WIAC than a terrestrial address seems simlarly to stretch the matter--but, again, . . .)  I don't doubt your summary, though--so perhaps will live and learn.

[Mr. Ypsi]

DD,

I'm astounded at the psychic abilities of your writing students - to automatically recognize that 'small' actually means 'smaller'!  You must be very proud of them!   I saw (and see) nothing in your post which directs me to think 'smaller' rather than 'small'.  Sorry.

[Pat Coleman]

Ypsi: And as an adjunct professor of writing, I can't recall the last time one of my undergraduates failed to recognize what was so plainly a typo that intended "smaller" rather than "small."  Or perhaps you'll explain to me now that 4 of 8 is not, indeed, a smallER portion than 5 of 9.  While you're at that, kindly offer some analysis of the meaningful point, which is the fraction adjusted for number of offerings & size of the competitive set in sports for which points are awarded--a case that, as I recall from having lurked here for some time, Ralph Turner once made quite plainly.

Pat Coleman: The numbers I quoted were YE2008-09 and YE2009-10. 

I saw your abstractly drawn point. I see that my list doesn't fit your theory, so therefore it's summarily ignored. Those NESCAC schools at the top? Coincidence, I guess?

[Purple Heys]

We took a lot of rain over the past week..it flooded Qualcomm Stadium during the course of the week to where the stadium loked like a wading pool 24 hours prior to tonight's Poinsettia Bowl.  I think an announcer for the World Wide Leader quoted that over a million gallons was pumped out to get the field ready tonight...unbelievable job by the Q's grounds crew to get the field playable.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled offseason programming on banning the WIAC from D3.   

[NewKnightDad]

You can keep the ban the WIAC talk here as far as I am concerned.  I happen to agree

Merry Christmas to all!!

[footballdaddy]

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone at D3! Even to you Willie!