FB: American Rivers Conference

[Pat Coleman]

Well, results against in-region opponents is part of the criteria, not just strength of schedule. Generally, it helps to play more of them.

There is basically nothing to be gained from playing NAIA schools in the eye of the NCAA. It never seems to help to beat them and it invariably seems to hurt to lost to them.

[Purple Heys]

Purple Heys -- I see you decided to use catches as the sole stat to determine who are the best receivers of all time. If you use receiving yards, I dare say Pierre Garcon ranks one hell of a lot higher than 25th.

You are obviously correct about Garcon in terms of where a receiver catches the ball, or what a receiver does with the ball once he latches on.   

However, in fairness, these are not my rankings...this the NCAA's   http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats/football_records/D2/2009/D3.pdf

I presume they (the NCAA) consider receptions as the primary metric for a receiver.

And again, I am not dissing the ability of a Garcon or a Shorts, which is self evident...but College football awards aren't a factor of who would make the better Pro.  Simply check the Heisman Trophy awards over the years.

If that were a metric, maybe we should also be including Jerhume Urban in that conversation.

[Pat Coleman]

However, in fairness, these are not my rankings...this the NCAA's   http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats/football_records/D2/2009/D3.pdf

Actually, sir, the NCAA PDF file lists receivers by receptions, by touchdowns (Garcon No. 2 all-time) and by career yardage (Garcon No. 5 all-time). If you read the whole record book rather than stopping at the first mention of receivers, you may learn something.

It was you who decided to spotlight only one stat. The NCAA lists all three.

[Klompen]

Very belated post, but my thoughts and prayers go out to the two families from Kansas City, originally from Haiti, whose sons drowned in the Pella Aquatic Center while attending an FCA camp at Central.  This is a tragedy that never, ever should have happened and shame on all those involved with the numerous mistakes that lead up to this event.  

I would think that the FCA, City of Pella, and Central Electric (not affiliated with Central College) would all be held liable in law suits that the families would certainly be justified in filing.  Both of the boys were identified as nonswimmers on the FCA forms, yet they both were allowed in the water and drowned in the deep end of the pool.  State law requires lights in the pool after dark, and yet because of improperly installed lights, there were no lights on and nobody out of like 175 campers, 20 chaperones and 10 lifeguards noticed the two bodies at the bottom of the pool.  Finally the city says that the lights have not been on for four years!!!  

Pardon me, but as a tax paying citizen of Pella, that is a lawsuit waiting to happen.  So the lights were improperly installed?  So you can't change them without draining the pool?  Haven't there been 3 off seasons that the lights could have been properly installed?  I don't care if the city is in a lawsuit with Central Electric about the way they were installed.  Change them out for the safety of all swimmers for heaven's sake!  These boys should not have had to drown.  They should not have been in the pool.  They should have been seen by someone and lights should have been working.  There is a lot of blame to go around, I hope people don't try to blame the victims for saying they could swim when the counselors realized they forgot to bring the forms to the pool.  What teenage boys would want to admit in front of so many people that they could not swim?

Such a tragedy to get people to realize the importance of doing things right.  So sad for all involved.

[Mav45]

Very belated post, but my thoughts and prayers go out to the two families from Kansas City, originally from Haiti, whose sons drowned in the Pella Aquatic Center while attending an FCA camp at Central.  This is a tragedy that never, ever should have happened and shame on all those involved with the numerous mistakes that lead up to this event.  

Pardon me, but as a tax paying citizen of Pella, that is a lawsuit waiting to happen.  So the lights were improperly installed?  So you can't change them without draining the pool?  Haven't there been 3 off seasons that the lights could have been properly installed?  I don't care if the city is in a lawsuit with Central Electric about the way they were installed.  Change them out for the safety of all swimmers for heaven's sake!  These boys should not have had to drown.  They should not have been in the pool.  They should have been seen by someone and lights should have been working.  There is a lot of blame to go around, I hope people don't try to blame the victims for saying they could swim when the counselors realized they forgot to bring the forms to the pool.  What teenage boys would want to admit in front of so many people that they could not swim?

Such a tragedy to get people to realize the importance of doing things right.  So sad for all involved.

Yes, a horrible, horrible tragedy!  But I've heard from numerous people that were there that the boys WERE told by two different counselors to stay out of the deep end.  That the kids elected to venture against that advice is a mystery.  It is true that nobody was "assigned" to watch them, to make sure that they complied --  How should it have been handled?  A babysitter?  These were 14 & 15 year old people.  And they WERE asked if they could swim on site; peer pressure or otherwise, they indicated that they could swim.  That the "waiver" was left back at camp was immaterial, really...such a sad story!

What is most unimaginable is how this could have happened given the number of people that were "right there".  My wife watched that area of the pool from the time the campers arrived, until end-of-party.  As a "nervous nellie", She observed the lifeguards and was well-satisfied that they were well-engaged and actively watching.  There were camp counselors watching.  The entire side of the pool was lined with adult coaches and wives...all enjoying the activity in the pool, all night long, right in front of them..  WHEN and HOW could that have happened?  How could all those people have "missed it?" Nobody knows.  The lifeguard on top insists that he never saw two black boys go down the slide all night.  WHEN did it happen?  Nobody knows.

Will there be a lawsuit?  Oh, I'm certain  that there will be.  Maybe the light-thing could have made a difference.  And in the final analysis, people will argue "who is to blame".  But in that conversation there should be some acknowledement of responsibility, too.     With a sad heart, I believe that the youngsters must share in the responsibility at hand.  Assigning "blame" and "shame" is easy from a distance.  From up close...there are a lot of very good people who were/are VERY emotionally invested in the lives of these young campers, who left Pella with broken hearts over this accident.   A dreadful experience.       

[Willie University]

Been away for a few days....missed lots of juicy conversation 

1.) Micheal Zweifel- You can't debate 2 things. He IS a HELLUVA WR as Heys puts it and he will do everything in his power to end his career to the best of his ability. If that means breaking records along the way, great. If that means earning 1st or 2nd team all D3, what an honor......but he most certainly does all of this to win football games and that is what means most to young zweifel. My opinion, he is the BEST WR I have seen play in the IIAC in 2 decades and that includes Matt Plummer who DID break a Jerry Rice record as a freshman.

2.) Coach Brautigam & the Rams.... I have always cheered the Rams because I know what it feels like to be in there shoes for many years. As for Coach B, as I have said before, I appreciate what he did to bring the Spartans 2 great years of success. Those were fun years to be a Spartan fan. And I wish him the best of luck at Cornell.......just not when playing the Spartans! 

3.) Wartburg camp.........hog wash.....pyschological tatic to get their early season opponents to underestimate them. Of course I certainly hope it is true though 

4.) I will probably never see it in my lifetime, but the best year of football as a fan would be the Spartans winning the IIAC, the Hawkeyes winning the Big Ten and the Cowboys winning the Super Bowl! I am feeling confident in 2 of 3 

Willie U

[Purple Heys]

However, in fairness, these are not my rankings...this the NCAA's   http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats/football_records/D2/2009/D3.pdf

Actually, sir, the NCAA PDF file lists receivers by receptions, by touchdowns (Garcon No. 2 all-time) and by career yardage (Garcon No. 5 all-time). If you read the whole record book rather than stopping at the first mention of receivers, you may learn something.

It was you who decided to spotlight only one stat.  The NCAA lists all three.

The NCAA lists 14 stats associated with receiving, the first stat cited, however, is Career receptions/game.  Touchdowns by a receiver is 6th on the list.... preceded by Career Recepts/game, Season Recepts/game, Career Receptions, Season Receptions, and Single Game Receptions.  My take is the NCAA sees Receptions as an important metric for a Receiver.

But all this is merely deflecting the original conversation.  I could deflect it further.  Based on the numbers, Scott Pingel is a far superior receiver to Pierre Garcon.      In 39 games Pingel scored 75 TD's compared to 60 TD's on 51 games for Garcon.  Do these numbers lie?

Now before Pat gets all defensive about this.  OBVIOUSLY the competition levels and several other factors make this an apples to oranges comparison - and it's pointless.  At the end of the day, what do Pierre Garcon and Scott Pingel have anything to do with Koors over Zweifel?

The bottom line is this:  Pat picks Koors, Pat picks Shorts for his preseason A-A  1st team.  I agree on Shorts, I disagree on Koors and I'll take Zweifel instead.

[Pat Coleman]

The NCAA lists 14 stats associated with receiving

Good of you to finally notice.

[DutchHawk]

Is it just me but are "we" always debating on ONE supposedly prolific player Dubuque has on the team? Year in and year out thats the debate, they  so and so who is the best player in the IIAC/D3 whatever. Yet never win the title!? Thats all fine and good, they can have one individual thats great, but until you get 22 you wont be in the talk for the championship.

Sorry to come off like an A$$ but some of the guys on here who have been around a while gotta see where Im coming from! And to our DBQ cohorts, no hard feelings, Z is a good player, Im just tired of useless debate!

[badgerwarhawk]

The wide receiver selections on D3football.com's All American teams and my comment are what started the whole discussion.  Though I suspect a team's success plays a part in a player's earning the honor by it's very nature it is essentially based on the individual's performance.  So debating the individual's performance versus another isn't "useless" debate it's to the very point. 

I've never implied Dubuque's program is anything more than it is.  My hunch is that in the not too distant future they're going to be much more competitive but whether they get good enough to win a championship remains to be seen.  However one thing about Coach Zweifel is that he is a relentless and tireless recruiter and a very good coach.  He's added another excellent coach this offseason to help him.  He's not the kind of guy to be satisfied with the status quo as it exists in Dubuque presently.   

[Purple Heys]

The NCAA lists 14 stats associated with receiving

Good of you to finally notice.

As if...

[02 Warhawk]

Overlooked in this current string is the time spent in the WIAC by Mr. Zweifel

He's as prolific a receiver as D3 has seen in awhile.

Reflecting on this, my vote goes to Zweifel

Really??? Even though it kills me to say this, but I'll take the two boys out of Mount Union (Shorts and Garcon) over Zweifel. Zweifel will finish with some amazing stats when his career is all said and done, but Shorts and Garcon are on a different level..faster and more athletic.

Really.  Remember we are picking a 2010 D3 All-American here, not organizing an NFL Draft Board or picking sides for a pick up game...Garcon is not even in the discussion at hand, he's not an NCAA player any more.

Not even in the discussion? What exactly did you mean then by "He's (Zweifel) as prolific a receiver as D3 has seen in awhile". Garcon was only been away from DIII football for just over two full seasons now...i think he fits in the "in a while" category.

but i think i know what your're trying to say...yes, i agree Z is a great WR. He doesn't have the luxury of playing on Mount Union...and still puts up great numbers.

[Purple Heys]

Point taken.  2 years isn't all that long....

How about this:  In today's instant gratification society, it's been a while...   

And again, this isn't about Peter Waiter, it's been stipulated that he was one of the most talented D3 receivers ever.  He's simply not in the discussion of the 2010 D3 A-A list, because he's no longer in D3.

What I was trying to say was, here's a guy, Z, who, unless he falters, should wind up near the top of the career NCAA D3 record books in several categories.  His 3-year production spans 2 competitive leagues and his performance against one of the tops (UW-W) looks pretty good.  And this guy can't get on the 1st team?

[02 Warhawk]

Point taken.  2 years isn't all that long....

How about this:  In today's instant gratification society, it's been a while...   

And again, this isn't about Peter Waiter, it's been stipulated that he was one of the most talented D3 receivers ever.  He's simply not in the discussion of the 2010 D3 A-A list, because he's no longer in D3.

What I was trying to say was, here's a guy, Z, who, unless he falters, should wind up near the top of the career NCAA D3 record books in several categories.  His 3-year production spans 2 competitive leagues and his performance against one of the tops (UW-W) looks pretty good.  And this guy can't get on the 1st team?

He'll be on the first-team list that actually matters...at the end of the season.

[warthog]

02 Warhawk makes more sense than anyone.  Pre-season polls and All-American teams basically mean nothing. If young Mr. Z is in fact the best wide receiver in D3 football he will be rewarded as such at season's end.  Until then he and his fan club can use the perceived slight as incentive to prove people wrong.