FB: American Rivers Conference

[Pat Coleman]

Why has board participation dropped?

• Pat hid/deemphasized D3 boards (... per College Administrator's request)

Or social media has taken the place of forums in general.

[bluenote]

... a couple years ago... it astonished me how good Wartburg was.... really.... not sure why they don't repeat?

[hazzben]

On a different note, I'm amazed at how D3 has changed.  I was an all-conference and all-american at Central and I'd be about 35-40 pounds undersized now for my position.  I watched the Stagg Bowl from this year and caught highlights of the 2003 Stagg Bowl while looking through the MIAC page, and there is a tremendous difference in the size, speed, recruiting, etc. in those 12 years.  I couldn't distinguish St. Thomas/Mount Union from a MAC/lower tier major conference school with the size and speed they had out there.

I don't think it is so much how D3 has changed so much as it's how college football has changed. I was reading a press release for an NAIA semi-final game from the very early 80's recently. Two dynasty programs were facing off back in the day when there were still a lot of teams playing NAIA. I was shocked how small the starting lineman were. 220 - 245 was about the range. A guy who was 275 would have been a monster.

And after watching the semi-finals and Stagg this year I went to the DII title game in KC (where I live). Going in I was really wondering how UST and Mount would match up speed and size-wise. But it's just another level. Their lineman are generally bigger (no one's larger than Simmett) and have better feet. Across the board, position by position, these guys were 2-3 inches taller and noticeably larger than the guys in the Stagg. Lally for Mount just dominated from the DT position. It was an impressive display. But NW Missouri St had a DT's and DE's that were larger and noticeably more explosive.

I think UST and Mount could have kept up with the speed at the skill positions. But they'd have been giving up major inches and muscle, position by position.

College football is just really good right now, for a lot of reasons. Middle schools have better weight programs than some colleges did back in the 70's and 80's. Strength and speed conditioning is more specialized and elite. And the big one, Title IX has been a boon for the competitive level of lower college football. When DI (FBS) reduced their scholarship, that had the natural effect of pushing more talent down to 1AA (FCS) and so on and so on.

[Fannosaurus Rex]

I step off for a couple of years and you I-wegians let the WIAC Board pass you on posts.  Don't make me come back here...

New topic:  Bringing the Single Wing back to Iowa...now discuss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzZVSizf2OI

I prefer Buffalo wings and a single is never enough.  I expect we will have a hard time keeping up with the WIAC board until we have a few of their 15 game seasons.

[DBQ1965]

Uh oh ... the basketball section has supplanted the football section.  Only 8 and 1/2 months to go.

[pg04]

Uh oh ... the basketball section has supplanted the football section.  Only 8 and 1/2 months to go.

I noticed that too. I know that you can "collapse" the boards for different sports, but I wish there was a functionality to order them yourself.

[DrDutch]

Back to Kac/McMartin, it wasn't just the one bad season that caused a change. Kac started to do some things along a religious context (anointing players with oil before games, for example) that rubbed players, fans, coaches, recruits, etc the wrong way and a change was needed. I was in Kac's first class and we were a great squad for those 4 years, but there was an evolution in him (he was only 29 when he got the job) that is natural as one grows and matures that led him to put his family, faith, etc ahead of football. I don't blame him for that, but even at the D3 level you have to be all-in and if you're not, it's time to do something else.

As for D3 football in general, I wouldn't change anything in particular, but I want to know the education of STUDENT-athletes is coming first. We're trying to build men and women of character in our schools and athletics is a key component of that, but shouldn't be the focus of an entire d3 private institution.

Merry Christmas and Go Dutch!

[OzJohnnie]

As for D3 football in general, I wouldn't change anything in particular, but I want to know the education of STUDENT-athletes is coming first. We're trying to build men and women of character in our schools and athletics is a key component of that, but shouldn't be the focus of an entire d3 private institution.

I agree with you. But let me ask, "Why not?"

Schools are here to make money after all and college sport has been a money making machine for some decades now. Here comes DIII to follow the lead. Donors love wins, administrators love wins, alumni love wins. And prospective non-athlete students like wins.  Take a middle of the range university, which d3 largely is (no research budgets, no endowed think tanks), in a market of massive oversupply (more waiters and call centre operators have degrees than is believable) and you have a recipe for a race to mass market appeal.  Ie, a sport profile.

How many small schools can you think of that don't have sport as a key part of their pitch?  I can think of only a few and they are all niche, either academic brand, religion or race.

Another question, what percentage of DIII alumni are involved in their former schools in any way other than sport?  Or not sport at all?

Anyway, I'm guess I'm arguing that college ain't what it used to be.  It's become 'common' and with that comes a change of the principles that previously shaped it.  I've pretty much convinced myself while typing this. Too harsh?

[doolittledog]

Thank you DrDutch.  That part of the story of Coach Kac I had not heard before (or forgot). 

As OzJohnnie noted, college has become more 'common' for high school students to move on to after graduation.  50 years ago, Iowa and ISU were the size UNI is now.  UNI was about the size Luther is now.  50 years ago, your average IIAC school had about 200 students (Luther was around 500) now your average IIAC school has 1500 students.  All that, and you now have a shrinking pool of graduating high school kids to fill those slots. 

If a kid wants to go to med school after their undergrad studies why would they choose a private school and 20k out of pocket per year over a state school and 12k out of pocket?  The answer is often their desire to continue in athletics.  And that is where the IIAC schools start competing against each other to get those kids on to their campus.

Another thing I will note.  When I was at Dubuque a family member of mine came back for her 25th reunion.  While she and her friends had gone on to successful careers and the education they received at college was responsible for that, their college memories were filled with football and basketball games they played in or attended.  Fraternity/Sorority activities they were involved with.  And all the extracurricular things you get caught up with during your 4 years of school.  Your education puts you in a position to attain jobs you wouldn't have the ability to get without that education.  But the friendships and memories you make while at school are often what you look back on and what make you want to pick up your checkbook and write that donation to the school when you are in your 40's and beyond. 




 

[DrDutch]

OZ--
I agree with you that athletics keeps us linked to our schools--look at us old men still discussing the talents, successes, and failures of 19 year old kids as we still dream of being 19 years old running around on the same fields they compete on today--and I think athletics/extracurriculars need to be a huge recruiting pitch for schools.  Maybe I'm getting old, but I feel athletics should complement the education, not be the reason for the education.  Athletics has done much for me, and still does, but I worry that the trend of D3 schools hyping their program as a way to the NFL is missing the boat.  I want Central to win and I want it to be like the glory days of the 80s, 90s, early 2000s again, but I want it to be done the right way with Central athletes going on to careers in medicine, business, service, agriculture, etc. and not leaving with a degree in football and nothing else.  I'm confident schools like St. John's (who I admire greatly even though they knocked us out of the playoffs in '99 and '00 by a combined 4 points--yes, I'm still bitter), Central, and many others are doing it the right way, but I want to make sure D3 stays pure in that sense and puts out well-rounded people who exemplify the liberal arts mindset and are strong in body, mind, and spirit.

Go Dutch!

[DrDutch]

Doolittle--
No disagreement there.  Letting the extras fill the experience is the point of D3, but I feel its a part of the experience, not the entire experience.  Look at UD, if not for the resurrection of the sports programs, there wouldn't be much of a school left.  Sports are important, just can't be the ONLY important part in my opinion. 

It's great to see some discussion on the board again!!!

[doolittledog]

I think sometimes we can fall prey to "grumpy old man disease"  I am more guilty than most.  But I think IIAC schools are truly using athletics as a tool to help drive enrollment numbers, and then have done a great job of providing these students with a quality education that these kids then take advantage of.

We've joked on here about Wartburg buying athletes, but their numbers for sending kids on to med school and other post grad places are as high as they have ever been.  With social media sites today I've seen UD athletes go on to work in the field they studied, not to call center jobs and what not.

I think it's easy for us to look at the athletic facilities arms race kids these days get to enjoy and we think back to what we had to work with and it's easy to think they are only there for the sports.  I think in reality, these kids are happy to continue their athletic career and enjoy their college experience, just like we did way back when.   

[DrDutch]

I agree with you Doolittle 100%. To start this whole thread I was looking at the Stagg Bowl as an example of how things have changed. I truly believe most of the IIAC is using athletics/academics for the right reason. Whether that's the case nationwide, I don't know. Will an IIAC school make a run again in the playoffs?  Damn right we will!  Will it be yearly like Saint Thomas, UWW, Mount Union, etc?  Probably not. It's apples and oranges when you look at enrollment, location, etc. I just hope that the right way wins out and we can educate future leaders and not just graduate football players.

Go Dutch!

[Purple Heys]

I think an interesting thing to find out is how has the success in football for Mount and UW-W improved institutional bottom line, faculty pay, and alumni engagement?

I watch the Stagg Bowl and they aren't filling the stadium, but 15 games per year is 50% more game revenue.  I don't know how much participating schools and conferences get from hosting playoff games...heck it probably costs money for a visiting victim...errr...school to send a team to an early round road playoff game.  Does the Stagg Bowl broadcast even make money?  Does Mount Athletics fiscally come out ahead playing 5 extra games each year?

The point is, outspending may not guarantee success but let's say it helps...what is the return on investment?

UD has fantastic facilities thanks to King Chipotle, he seems happy.  The school seems resurgent, but did that trickle all the way to the bottom line?

And if there is a correlation, then would not it behoove more to follow the formula?

[doolittledog]

I think an interesting thing to find out is how has the success in football for Mount and UW-W improved institutional bottom line, faculty pay, and alumni engagement?

I watch the Stagg Bowl and they aren't filling the stadium, but 15 games per year is 50% more game revenue.  I don't know how much participating schools and conferences get from hosting playoff games...heck it probably costs money for a visiting victim...errr...school to send a team to an early round road playoff game.  Does the Stagg Bowl broadcast even make money?  Does Mount Athletics fiscally come out ahead playing 5 extra games each year?

The point is, outspending may not guarantee success but let's say it helps...what is the return on investment?

UD has fantastic facilities thanks to King Chipotle, he seems happy.  The school seems resurgent, but did that trickle all the way to the bottom line?

And if there is a correlation, then would not it behoove more to follow the formula?

We need a poster with an econ background to help out here...paging Warthog

Return on investment?  UD has gone from a school with 600 undergrads to one with 1,600 undergrads. Now for the rest of the story...

Those of us on here naturally look at sports facilities and say UD pursued sports glory to turn things around and that really doesn't show the entire picture.  If you go back 15 years...  $7.5 million went into the expansion and renovation of the Goldthorpe science hall that brought back the nursing major to UD.  There have been quite a few UD football players that were nursing majors.  And another 2.5 million is now being spent for the new addition that will add a Physician's Assistant program.  $5million went towards the building the Baldwin-Dunlap Technology Center.  That added a Computer Graphics major to the University.  Dominique Ravenell, a 3 time all-IIAC lineman was a computer graphics major.  An $8million renovation to the library is a lure for new students.  The Myers Center was built that holds offices as well as additional class rooms.  The Heritage Center was built, which houses 2 theaters, as well as numerous dining options for students and a convenience store.  Probably most importantly, additional student housing has been built that is nicer than any kid really deserves  

While those of us on here see the new football stadium, indoor track, renovated basketball arena, soccer/lacrosse field, and indoor practice facility at UD, we have to acknowledge all those academic facilities in all probability have more to do with the resurgence of Dubuque.  Now, I will say, if a local all-state kid finds that UD offers the major he/she is interested in and that major is also offered at other IIAC schools, those bright and shiny athletic facilities could be the factor that persuades them to make the move to University Ave in Dubuque...and that would make me very happy!

Now, does athletic success lead to happier students?  That leads to better grades?  Which leads to better post graduate careers?  Which leads to more disposable income?  Which leads to larger donations to your alma mater?