FB: American Rivers Conference

[wildcat11]

Years ago, I heard that this was quite common practice in the Pacific Northwest.  Seems unlike D3.

Taking a Redshirt year was perfectly legal "years ago" before the NCAA eliminated it. 

[Outside the Crate]

Couple things.  First, the fifth-year players at Wartburg were medical and all approved by the Conference. 

Second, the culture of the Iowa Conference schools is such that it's unlikely a player would sit out and thus extend their education for a ninth or tenth semester in order to continue to play a sport.  Cost is only part of the equation.  I know of a wrestler that was able to do a fifth year (medical) in order to have another shot at a national championship.  He ended up getting second place for a second time.  He now has a PhD in mathematics from Iowa.  For him, it was a passion to win that individual achievement.  I know the family; they were low income.

It's hard to compare the financial situation of individual students.  While it's true there are no athletic scholarships in D3, there are clearly other and often abundant sources of financial aid, particularly for very talented students.  Many years ago, I did a study at a college I served, and our highest-aided football player (we had scholarships for athletes) paid more out-of-pocket than any public institution in the conference charged (before aid).  We were at a distinct disadvantage.  As to whether that's true of most D3 private colleges versus public I have no idea.  The perception that the publics are a lot cheaper is surely a factor in recruiting.

But, back to my original point, I really think the "grey" year at Oshkosh, which is surely more possible because of their state subsidy, tilts the scales in their favor.  So, the WIAC schools are roughly five to seven times larger than the typical private college, and their sticker price is a third.  The advantages mount.  (I'm not recommending anything; this is all just observation.)

[Outside the Crate]

 So, Wildcat, if the NCAA outlawed redshirting "years ago," how is Oshkosh able to do their so-called "grey years"?

[Mr. Ypsi]

So, Wildcat, if the NCAA outlawed redshirting "years ago," how is Oshkosh able to do their so-called "grey years"?

"Grey shirting" simply means not participating with the team at all.  I could say I grey shirted all fours years at IWU!

[Pat Coleman]

Years ago, I heard that this was quite common practice in the Pacific Northwest.  Seems unlike D3.

Taking a Redshirt year was perfectly legal "years ago" before the NCAA eliminated it.

Until NCAA Division III members voted (by a wide margin, by the way) to eliminate it.

[wildcat11]

Years ago, I heard that this was quite common practice in the Pacific Northwest.  Seems unlike D3.

Taking a Redshirt year was perfectly legal "years ago" before the NCAA eliminated it.

Until NCAA Division III members voted (by a wide margin, by the way) to eliminate it.

Splitting hairs, Pat.

OtC,

Grey's don't do anything with football in terms of practice.  Red's can fully participate in practice, meetings, workouts, but no suiting up for games.  It's a pretty big difference.

[doolittledog]

There was a story in the Dubuque Telegraph-Herald a few years ago about greyshirting at UW-Platteville.  Kids would go through August practice and then get "cut" from the team.  They didn't practice with the team or go to team meetings that fall.  My memory says they were able to go through spring practice and meetings at that point but maybe that isn't right.  The next fall as a "freshman" they had gone through two August practices, possibly 1 spring practice, and had been studying the playbook for a year.  A good chunk of Platteville players were going that route back then.  That may or may not be the case now.

Greyshirting is legal.  We can banter back-and-forth on here about if that goes against the spirit of D3.  We will think it is.  The WIAC fans will think it's just fine. 

We can argue WIAC schools have an advantage with cost.  WIAC fans can point to figures that show Public schools don't win at higher rates than privates. 

My opinion is not all public schools are equal.  Many of the eastern publics are small schools that more closely resemble small private schools.  The WIAC schools more closely resemble the D2 Northern Sun public schools in Minnesota, or even FCS schools like UNI.  Families I have talked to around here have said they felt like the facilities in the WIAC and the size of the campus made them feel like they were playing at a higher level than if they had gone to a smaller private school.  That might be as big a deal as the (possibly) lower costs in the WIAC, or that there are WIAC schools that advocate greyshirting.  That's just my opinion though.  There are those that think that not only that I am wrong, but I am wrong most of the time! 


 

[Outside the Crate]

Grey versus red?  Hmmm, seems denying the difference overlooks the advantage of an additional year of maturity and weight training.  If it didn't make a significant difference no one would do it!  I don't like it, and I think it diminishes the character of D3.  If Oshkosh wants to do that they should just go ahead and go D2.  But, of course, if there was anyone out there who agrees with me we'd hear about it.

[Pat Coleman]

Years ago, I heard that this was quite common practice in the Pacific Northwest.  Seems unlike D3.

Taking a Redshirt year was perfectly legal "years ago" before the NCAA eliminated it.

Until NCAA Division III members voted (by a wide margin, by the way) to eliminate it.

Splitting hairs, Pat.

Ehh -- considering all the complaining I hear from parts of Division III about the things the NCAA does *to* you, I think it's fair game to point out the things that are done by a vote of the Division III membership, and this was definitely on the list. The NCAA didn't do this to anyone. We chose to do it to ourselves, and it's one of the things which made the Division IV movement unnecessary.

[UWO Titan 78]

The WIAC is a league loaded with football talent. Stout--middle of our conference--beat St. Thomas this year. There are kids who show up on campus and want to play football and just aren't physically mature enough to compete in the league. Back in the 90s, I showed up as a 230-lb, 17-year-old offensive lineman and couldn't compete. I red-shirted. I benefited from a year of weight-room work. I was a back-up a year, and I started my final three seasons. I paid an extra semester of tuition, and I graduated after my final fall season. All coaches want to win their league first. Many freshmen simply can't compete in the WIAC. Grey-shirting allows kids to acclimate to a school and get bigger and stronger in order to compete at the level the conference dictates. This doesn't happen as much with the other sports, because those sports aren't dictated by size and speed all the time. If you can shoot a basketball, you can weigh 150 lbs. There is a lot of attrition at the D3 level. I know when I played, I came in with 60 other freshmen. Only about 10 made it through to our senior season. Grey-shirting helps stock the program. Is it an advantage? Absolutely. But many schools have advantages. Mount used to regularly carry almost 200 kids on their roster, and play full JV schedules with multiple teams. Other schools have huge endowments to offset costs for recruits. The WIAC has some major advantages, but there are some disadvantages. The biggest is, you often need to win the toughest conference in the country just to get in the national tournament. The WIAC often has multiple teams left home from the tournament that would win multiple games in the post-season (Whitewater, LAX, and Platteville could have won games in the playoffs this year). I'm sure WIAC coaches would happily eliminate grey-shirting if the NCAA would eliminate automatic bids and just take the top 32 teams for the tournament.

[D O.C.]

Sure like to see a photo composite of all those WIAC weight rooms so I can compare to...say Whittier.

[bluenote]

Years ago, I heard that this was quite common practice in the Pacific Northwest.  Seems unlike D3.

Taking a Redshirt year was perfectly legal "years ago" before the NCAA eliminated it.

Until NCAA Division III members voted (by a wide margin, by the way) to eliminate it.

Splitting hairs, Pat.

Ehh -- considering all the complaining I hear from parts of Division III about the things the NCAA does *to* you, I think it's fair game to point out the things that are done by a vote of the Division III membership, and this was definitely on the list. The NCAA didn't do this to anyone. We chose to do it to ourselves, and it's one of the things which made the Division IV movement unnecessary.

Nice to hear u Chiming in Pat... always like your opinion!

[Outside the Crate]

I wasn't complaining about the NCAA.  I know who makes the rules, and it's the rule I was questioning.  With all the talk about the cost of education it makes no sense to organize the co-curriculum to add an extra (and expensive) year and then complain about the cost of education.  And, of course, most of the D3 colleges would and could not adopt this strategy.  Why they allow it for anyone it is beyond me.  As they say, "Duh?"

[MiacMan]

Years ago, I heard that this was quite common practice in the Pacific Northwest.  Seems unlike D3.

Taking a Redshirt year was perfectly legal "years ago" before the NCAA eliminated it.

Until NCAA Division III members voted (by a wide margin, by the way) to eliminate it.

Splitting hairs, Pat.

Ehh -- considering all the complaining I hear from parts of Division III about the things the NCAA does *to* you, I think it's fair game to point out the things that are done by a vote of the Division III membership, and this was definitely on the list. The NCAA didn't do this to anyone. We chose to do it to ourselves, and it's one of the things which made the Division IV movement unnecessary.

Nice to hear u Chiming in Pat... always like your opinion!

You guys have a great discussion going here. Sounds to me like a case of following the "letter of the law" vs. the "Spirit of the law" My guess would be that the NCAA DIII wanted to eliminate Purposeful 5th year player. They wanted a graduation rate of D3 players to be 4yrs. Otherwise, they would not have eliminated "redshirting". I heard of a basketball team that used to practice with volleyballs in the first week of Basketball "conditioning" because the conference did not allow "basketballs" to be used in the first 5 days of workouts. Seems like the same principal here. Perfectly legal and within the rules. Ethical?

[badgerwarhawk]

If the NCAA wanted to eliminate the "purposeful 5th year player" why do they still allow an athlete five years to complete their four years of eligibility?  Why don't they pass a resolution that mandates four years to do so and make an exception if the reason is medically related?