FB: American Rivers Conference

[MiacMan]

If the NCAA wanted to eliminate the "purposeful 5th year player" why do they still allow an athlete five years to complete their four years of eligibility?  Why don't they pass a resolution that mandates four years to do so and make an exception if the reason is medically related?

I don't know. You have a good a good idea there. You did kind of answer your own question. That is why they have five to complete four at the D3 level. Redshirting is why they have it at the other levels. All I know is that in a previous life when I had to recruit against it we would spell out what that extra year really costs by adding in a years wages on top of the tuition costs usually in the neighborhood of about $50k.

[badgerwarhawk]

If the NCAA wanted to eliminate the "purposeful 5th year player" why do they still allow an athlete five years to complete their four years of eligibility?  Why don't they pass a resolution that mandates four years to do so and make an exception if the reason is medically related?

I don't know. You have a good a good idea there. You did kind of answer your own question. That is why they have five to complete four at the D3 level. Redshirting is why they have it at the other levels. All I know is that in a previous life when I had to recruit against it we would spell out what that extra year really costs by adding in a years wages on top of the tuition costs usually in the neighborhood of about $50k.

I don't think the NCAA wanted to eliminate the 5th year player.   What I think they wanted to do was mitigate the advantage as much as possible by allowing a grey shirt so no eligibility is lost but disallowing any contact with the program.  And let the families make the financial decisions.   

[emma17]

Sure like to see a photo composite of all those WIAC weight rooms so I can compare to...say Whittier.

Sometimes I don't know if I need to read between the lines with your posts. Whittier has a very nice facility.

A school can always go about getting what they want with good old fashioned fundraising, a method available to all schools, public and private:

The University of Wisconsin-Whitewater Department of Intercollegiate Athletics is set to begin major facility upgrades to the baseball and football complexes during the upcoming year. The Baseball Clubhouse Renovation project at Miller Stadium will commence this month, while the Football Performance Center/Locker Room project at Perkins Stadium will start following the completion of the 2017 season. The total cost of the projects is $4.95 million and is being largely funded by external dollars raised specifically by the UW-Whitewater athletics department. Alumni and friends of the program may still purchase a locker for the updated locker room for a price of $1500 payable over five years. To purchase a locker, contact Bob Berezowitz

[MiacMan]

If the NCAA wanted to eliminate the "purposeful 5th year player" why do they still allow an athlete five years to complete their four years of eligibility?  Why don't they pass a resolution that mandates four years to do so and make an exception if the reason is medically related?

I don't know. You have a good a good idea there. You did kind of answer your own question. That is why they have five to complete four at the D3 level. Redshirting is why they have it at the other levels. All I know is that in a previous life when I had to recruit against it we would spell out what that extra year really costs by adding in a years wages on top of the tuition costs usually in the neighborhood of about $50k.

I don't think the NCAA wanted to eliminate the 5th year player.   What I think they wanted to do was mitigate the advantage as much as possible by allowing a grey shirt so no eligibility is lost but disallowing any contact with the program.  And let the families make the financial decisions.

Not sure I am buying that one. The NCAA usually likes to control all eligibility matters. Allowing (for lack of a better term) an underground redshirt doesn't really make a lot of sense. Why wouldn't they just tell everyone they can have (X) number of redshirts. Make it a manageable number that everyone could deal with. That aside, here is a question for anyone reading this (Pat). If say River Falls is "grey shirting" a young man, supposedly is he is not any part of the RF program or roster and Hamline was recruiting him as well in HS, can Hamline continue to recruit him while "grey shirting" at RF?   

[doolittledog]

Sure like to see a photo composite of all those WIAC weight rooms so I can compare to...say Whittier.

Sometimes I don't know if I need to read between the lines with your posts. Whittier has a very nice facility.

A school can always go about getting what they want with good old fashioned fundraising, a method available to all schools, public and private:

The University of Wisconsin-Whitewater Department of Intercollegiate Athletics is set to begin major facility upgrades to the baseball and football complexes during the upcoming year. The Baseball Clubhouse Renovation project at Miller Stadium will commence this month, while the Football Performance Center/Locker Room project at Perkins Stadium will start following the completion of the 2017 season. The total cost of the projects is $4.95 million and is being largely funded by external dollars raised specifically by the UW-Whitewater athletics department. Alumni and friends of the program may still purchase a locker for the updated locker room for a price of $1500 payable over five years. To purchase a locker, contact Bob Berezowitz

I imagine good old fashioned fund raising is a bit easier when you have 10 times the alumni base at a place like Whitewater as opposed to the Wartburgs of the world   

Schools find their way in the recruiting game.  WIAC schools with their size look impressive to high school aged kids.  The price of WIAC schools look impressive to parents trying to figure out how to pay for their kids college educations.  Greyshirting is a way WIAC schools have found to compete on the field at a high level nationally.  There are MIAC schools with $500 million and upwards toward $1 billion in endowments.  Those go a long ways towards offering potential students favorable aid packages as well as fund nice facilities.  That helps MIAC schools compete on the field at a high level nationally.   

I would say most IIAC schools have decent enough facilities.  They don't look like what you see in the WIAC, but they are nice.  IIAC schools, faced with a dwindling local population are casting a wider net in the recruiting game.  It will be interesting to see if IIAC schools can find a way to up their game against the competition.   

[Purple Heys]

Not sure I am buying that one. The NCAA usually likes to control all eligibility matters. Allowing (for lack of a better term) an underground redshirt doesn't really make a lot of sense. Why wouldn't they just tell everyone they can have (X) number of redshirts. Make it a manageable number that everyone could deal with. That aside, here is a question for anyone reading this (Pat). If say River Falls is "grey shirting" a young man, supposedly is he is not any part of the RF program or roster and Hamline was recruiting him as well in HS, can Hamline continue to recruit him while "grey shirting" at RF?   

If I understand it correctly it is a minor NCAA infraction (and generally a breach of coaching courtesy) to recruit rostered players of another program.  Consider the situation of Dale Widolff - former coach of the football program that used to be at Occidental College (long story).  His dismissal was due in part (longer story) to this type of recruiting infraction.  A grey shirt is not a rostered player, not officially affiliated with the football program as a player, does not practice, does not attend team meetings, and therefore would be fair game.  As far as the school and the football team is concerned this is a regular student - who just might want to play some football the following year and have 4 full years of eligibility.

[emma17]

Sure like to see a photo composite of all those WIAC weight rooms so I can compare to...say Whittier.

Sometimes I don't know if I need to read between the lines with your posts. Whittier has a very nice facility.

A school can always go about getting what they want with good old fashioned fundraising, a method available to all schools, public and private:

The University of Wisconsin-Whitewater Department of Intercollegiate Athletics is set to begin major facility upgrades to the baseball and football complexes during the upcoming year. The Baseball Clubhouse Renovation project at Miller Stadium will commence this month, while the Football Performance Center/Locker Room project at Perkins Stadium will start following the completion of the 2017 season. The total cost of the projects is $4.95 million and is being largely funded by external dollars raised specifically by the UW-Whitewater athletics department. Alumni and friends of the program may still purchase a locker for the updated locker room for a price of $1500 payable over five years. To purchase a locker, contact Bob Berezowitz

I imagine good old fashioned fund raising is a bit easier when you have 10 times the alumni base at a place like Whitewater as opposed to the Wartburgs of the world   

Schools find their way in the recruiting game.  WIAC schools with their size look impressive to high school aged kids.  The price of WIAC schools look impressive to parents trying to figure out how to pay for their kids college educations.  Greyshirting is a way WIAC schools have found to compete on the field at a high level nationally.  There are MIAC schools with $500 million and upwards toward $1 billion in endowments.  Those go a long ways towards offering potential students favorable aid packages as well as fund nice facilities.  That helps MIAC schools compete on the field at a high level nationally.   

I would say most IIAC schools have decent enough facilities.  They don't look like what you see in the WIAC, but they are nice.  IIAC schools, faced with a dwindling local population are casting a wider net in the recruiting game.  It will be interesting to see if IIAC schools can find a way to up their game against the competition.   

I think UWW probably has about the same number of athletic alumni though right? I don't imagine there were many non-athlete alumni donating $1,500 for a locker- and yet the project worked. But you don't want to hear that story because it doesn't fit the woe is me agenda.
Were you and the others saying the same before UWW made their run? Didn't UWW lose to Iowa schools in the playoffs in the 80's and 90's? Were you concerned about the WIAC advantage then?

[MiacMan]

Not sure I am buying that one. The NCAA usually likes to control all eligibility matters. Allowing (for lack of a better term) an underground redshirt doesn't really make a lot of sense. Why wouldn't they just tell everyone they can have (X) number of redshirts. Make it a manageable number that everyone could deal with. That aside, here is a question for anyone reading this (Pat). If say River Falls is "grey shirting" a young man, supposedly is he is not any part of the RF program or roster and Hamline was recruiting him as well in HS, can Hamline continue to recruit him while "grey shirting" at RF?   

If I understand it correctly it is a minor NCAA infraction (and generally a breach of coaching courtesy) to recruit rostered players of another program.  Consider the situation of Dale Widolff - former coach of the football program that used to be at Occidental College (long story).  His dismissal was due in part (longer story) to this type of recruiting infraction.  A grey shirt is not a rostered player, not officially affiliated with the football program as a player, does not practice, does not attend team meetings, and therefore would be fair game.  As far as the school and the football team is concerned this is a regular student - who just might want to play some football the following year and have 4 full years of eligibility.

Purple, that is exactly how I see it. I could be wrong but I get the feeling from some posts that folks out there think or see "greyshirting" as something that the NCAA has addressed and given it's blessing. I could find no reference to "greyshirting" on the NCAA website. Unless I am missing something as I had mentioned in a previous post it appears to be a "within the rules" way of following the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. Honestly, I don't have a problem with it. It's not a huge advantage because anybody can do it. You can recruit against it because the cost of that year without football (or other sport) is large in lost earnings.

[doolittledog]

A whole lot of non-athletes donate to athletics projects at their schools.  You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.  And I'm talking overall campus facilities...dorms, cafeterias, academic buildings, theaters, the whole shooting match.  I've seen many locals kids jaws drop when they see the Platteville campus and then talk about Dubuque or Loras.   

I don't have a woe is me agenda.  There are WIAC schools that are employing a tactic that is working for them.  Good for them in figuring that out.  There are MIAC schools with money that gives them an advantage in offering aid and funding facilities upgrades.  That is what they should be doing.  Iowa schools need to figure out how to be successful again on the national scene.  Good coaching, opening up recruiting pipelines from other parts of the country, improving facilities is the start of the process.   

Pretty sure the WIAC were still NAIA in the 80's.  In the 90's I was just hoping my school, Dubuque, didn't close their doors.  10 years ago when I was a woe-is-me poster complaining about perceived advantages at Central/Wartburg I was often told to worry about Dubuque getting better and less about other schools.  After I calmed down I realized they were right. 

Still, this is a message board.  Asking what others on here think of greyshirting...if they are for or against it sounds like a legit question.  I'm not a fan of it.  I do think a WIAC school will have an advantage with 10 or more 5th year players that greyshirted.  I can also say I think the size of WIAC schools appeals to many of today's kids.  That parents might nudge kids towards a WIAC school.  All this isn't any WIAC school's fault.  They are all playing by the rules.  It's up to IIAC schools to try to find a solution.

Now, if you'll excuse me I have to get back to talking to my friends...

 

 

[Mr. Ypsi]

I can't quite get my head around the concern with 'greyshirting'.  All it is is a student deciding not to be a member of the team (or participate in any meetings, etc.) for a year.  How could a regulation be formulated to PREVENT not participating in a sport?  He didn't make the team as a freshman, but hopes to do so as a sophomore - gosh, stop the presses!   He was NOT in any way a member of the team in year one; therefore still has four years of eligibility - well, golly gee!

At IWU I was 'greyshirted' all four years in football!  (And basketball, and baseball... !)

[edward de vere]

The issue is physical maturation in a young person.

(Mental and psychological maturation, as well, I suppose.)

A team of boys eleven years old playing a team of boys ten years old would have an advantage of 10% maturation across the board.

21 vs. 20 = 5% advantage across the board.

A team of men at 31 playing a team of men at 30 - uh, no advantage.  Going the other way, actually.

[MiacMan]

I can't quite get my head around the concern with 'greyshirting'.  All it is is a student deciding not to be a member of the team (or participate in any meetings, etc.) for a year.  How could a regulation be formulated to PREVENT not participating in a sport?  He didn't make the team as a freshman, but hopes to do so as a sophomore - gosh, stop the presses!   He was NOT in any way a member of the team in year one; therefore still has four years of eligibility - well, golly gee!

At IWU I was 'greyshirted' all four years in football!  (And basketball, and baseball... !)

Ypsi, I with you agree 100% by your example, every school in the country is "greyshirting" the entire student body of their non-athletes. However, let's be honest and at least call it what is "a way around the no redshirting rule". the entire student body wasn't recruited there to play a certain sport and then told that they have to "decide not to play" their first year or told they have been "cut from the team" (wink, wink) but as soon as the first season is over you get to become a full-fledged team member without a tryout. Also, during the season that you have "decided not play or were cut", we would like you to do this workout with some others that "decided not to play" on these specific days and times. Let's face it, it's a loop-hole, it's a way around the redshirting rule. It's perfectly legal or within the rules but it does violate the "Spirit of the rule" Everyone can do, it if they so choose. I would venture to state that if an NCAA official asked one of the greyshirted athletes why he/she didn't play their first year and they told them they were "greyshirted" that individual along with the school would have a lot questions to answer. Just my guess, a fun debate though!

[USTBench]

I can't quite get my head around the concern with 'greyshirting'.  All it is is a student deciding not to be a member of the team (or participate in any meetings, etc.) for a year.  How could a regulation be formulated to PREVENT not participating in a sport?  He didn't make the team as a freshman, but hopes to do so as a sophomore - gosh, stop the presses!   He was NOT in any way a member of the team in year one; therefore still has four years of eligibility - well, golly gee!

At IWU I was 'greyshirted' all four years in football!  (And basketball, and baseball... !)

Ypsi, I with you agree 100% by your example, every school in the country is "greyshirting" the entire student body of their non-athletes. However, let's be honest and at least call it what is "a way around the no redshirting rule". the entire student body wasn't recruited there to play a certain sport and then told that they have to "decide not to play" their first year or told they have been "cut from the team" (wink, wink) but as soon as the first season is over you get to become a full-fledged team member without a tryout. Also, during the season that you have "decided not play or were cut", we would like you to do this workout with some others that "decided not to play" on these specific days and times. Let's face it, it's a loop-hole, it's a way around the redshirting rule. It's perfectly legal or within the rules but it does violate the "Spirit of the rule" Everyone can do, it if they so choose. I would venture to state that if an NCAA official asked one of the greyshirted athletes why he/she didn't play their first year and they told them they were "greyshirted" that individual along with the school would have a lot questions to answer. Just my guess, a fun debate though!

Well, I guess it's up to those kids or their parents if they want to spring for an extra year of tuition. My parents basically told me I get four years of help from them (which is awesome of them), but after that, I was on my own.

Fall camp my senior year I was still dealing with a nagging injury from the prior year, and it seemed quite obvious that I was now further down the depth chart than I was as a sophomore. I wish I could have taken a year off to get healthy and stronger and squeezed another year out of it, but it was time to move on from football and graduate. It's not exactly a feeling of regret, because the option wasn't available to me take a year off and come back as a super senior, and holding up plays for the scout team for 2 hours every afternoon so I can feel like I'm part of the team wasn't going to prepare me for life after college. Not everyone gets to senior day, and I sure wish I could after devoting 3 years and my senior year of two-a-days, but that's life, and that's DIII.

That said, if a kid wants to "greyshirt" and his parents want to pay for it, I have no problem with it. It's where you, and more importantly, your family, puts football on life's great hierarchy. I put it much higher than my parents did, but I also had the sense to know that dragging my leg behind me from class to class and wrapping myself up like a mummy 6 days a week for the hope of playing garbage time against Hamline, wasn't doing myself any favors. 

[miac952]

Sure like to see a photo composite of all those WIAC weight rooms so I can compare to...say Whittier.

Sometimes I don't know if I need to read between the lines with your posts. Whittier has a very nice facility.

A school can always go about getting what they want with good old fashioned fundraising, a method available to all schools, public and private:

The University of Wisconsin-Whitewater Department of Intercollegiate Athletics is set to begin major facility upgrades to the baseball and football complexes during the upcoming year. The Baseball Clubhouse Renovation project at Miller Stadium will commence this month, while the Football Performance Center/Locker Room project at Perkins Stadium will start following the completion of the 2017 season. The total cost of the projects is $4.95 million and is being largely funded by external dollars raised specifically by the UW-Whitewater athletics department. Alumni and friends of the program may still purchase a locker for the updated locker room for a price of $1500 payable over five years. To purchase a locker, contact Bob Berezowitz

I imagine good old fashioned fund raising is a bit easier when you have 10 times the alumni base at a place like Whitewater as opposed to the Wartburgs of the world   

Schools find their way in the recruiting game.  WIAC schools with their size look impressive to high school aged kids.  The price of WIAC schools look impressive to parents trying to figure out how to pay for their kids college educations.  Greyshirting is a way WIAC schools have found to compete on the field at a high level nationally.  There are MIAC schools with $500 million and upwards toward $1 billion in endowments.  Those go a long ways towards offering potential students favorable aid packages as well as fund nice facilities.  That helps MIAC schools compete on the field at a high level nationally.   

I would say most IIAC schools have decent enough facilities.  They don't look like what you see in the WIAC, but they are nice.  IIAC schools, faced with a dwindling local population are casting a wider net in the recruiting game.  It will be interesting to see if IIAC schools can find a way to up their game against the competition.   

It is really interesting to see this conversation evolve. Each University has its own fundraising and revenue strategies to support sports. As you noted above there are a handful of MIAC institution with fairly health endowments. It isn't always the size of your schools enrollment or how large the alumni network is. Equally important, if not more, is the affinity garnered for your university and what your alumni end up going on to do. That affinity can be stronger at private institutions.

The Whitewater strategies noted above look to be great tools to get a large number of donors involved at levels that don't shut people out ($1500 over five years is doable to many athletic alumni) and build on future relationships. For UST it has been interesting that they have worked their tails off in pursuit of a couple of very significant gifts. Two of the largest to the university recently have been from non-alumni (Dick Schultze $50m, Lee Anderson $60m). The same is true for the major benefactor that helped kick start MHB's football program and build the new stadium. Big $ guy that didnt attend the University, but had a fondness for the mission and what it stood for. Those donors are easier to pursue in larger markets, since many alumni may land at those types of individual's companies.

[miac952]

My thoughts on the grey-shirting for football - If it's on the up and up and they are following the letter of the law, I have no problem with it. It might be a more attractive option in football vs. other sports because the extra year physically is more beneficial than other sports and its a fall sport, so it really only has to be one more additional semester of schooling.