FB: American Rivers Conference

[Pat Coleman]

Why is the calculation that UST starts recruiting against WIAC schools any more than they already do? Even if UST were to become a WIAC member, it would still be a school smack dab in the heart of the Twin Cities and would compete against the same schools it already competes against.

[hazzben]

Why is the calculation that UST starts recruiting against WIAC schools any more than they already do? Even if UST were to become a WIAC member, it would still be a school smack dab in the heart of the Twin Cities and would compete against the same schools it already competes against.

Pat makes a good point here. From what I've seen, UST/Caruso have put a high priority on 3 areas. Twin Cities, Wisconsin, and Chicago. They recruit some nationally as well, but they've made their living in these areas. In part, this is why the WIAC is probably a better fit. It puts them even more squarely in their recruiting base.

UST also doesn't have 10,000 undergrads. That's their total enrollment number - undergrad is just north of 6k. If total enrollment is the number, then Bethel's enrollment is 6,500 (really it's 2,600ish undergrads).

WIAC undergrad enrollments:
UWEC - 9,900
UWL - 9,700
Stout - 8,100
UWRF - 5,700
UWSP - 7,800
UWO - 12,100
UWP - 7,500
UWW - 11,100

Again, this is a moot point. No one is patrolling the student union looking for football recruits. But if the MIAC presidents are correct, UST is screwed in the WIAC, how can they even hope to compete against such big, mean schools. 

[MediaGuy]

Why is the calculation that UST starts recruiting against WIAC schools any more than they already do? Even if UST were to become a WIAC member, it would still be a school smack dab in the heart of the Twin Cities and would compete against the same schools it already competes against.

Pat makes a good point here. From what I've seen, UST/Caruso have put a high priority on 3 areas. Twin Cities, Wisconsin, and Chicago. They recruit some nationally as well, but they've made their living in these areas. In part, this is why the WIAC is probably a better fit. It puts them even more squarely in their recruiting base.

UST also doesn't have 10,000 undergrads. That's their total enrollment number - undergrad is just north of 6k. If total enrollment is the number, then Bethel's enrollment is 6,500 (really it's 2,600ish undergrads).

WIAC undergrad enrollments:
UWEC - 9,900
UWL - 9,700
Stout - 8,100
UWRF - 5,700
UWSP - 7,800
UWO - 12,100
UWP - 7,500
UWW - 11,100

Again, this is a moot point. No one is patrolling the student union looking for football recruits. But if the MIAC presidents are correct, UST is screwed in the WIAC, how can they even hope to compete against such big, mean schools. 

I've seen the back and forth about the enrollment numbers and while I agree that number of students doesn't help much from a participation standpoint (open tryouts/regular students joining athletics) there is a factor about enrollment that I haven't seen talked about and that is fundraising.  From a business standpoint the reason you want high class academics is so you can produce a graduate who can get a higher paying job in the future and donate back to the school later.  So for me the biggest advantage to larger enrollments are more potential donors later and if you have a school with 1,400 students like Wartburg, trying to stay in the facilities arms race with UST at 6,000 students, you can see how the enrollment difference makes for an exponential advantage over the years.  For example: 50% of former students give $1000 each year
                     
                                        Wartburg                                         UST
                                     350 Grads/Year                         1,500 Grads/Year

Year 1                      175 Grads give $175,000               750 Grads give $750,000
Year 2                      350 Grads give $350,000               1500 Grads give $1,500,000
Year 3                      525 Grads give $525,000               2,250 Grads give $2,250,000
Year 4                      700 Grads give $700,000               3,000 Grads give $3,000,000
Year 5                      875 Grads give $875,000               3,750 Grads give $3,750,000

Total after 5 years            $2,625,000                                     $11,250,000

So after only 5 years of this enrollment difference UST has the ability to raise 5x the amount of $$$ as Wartburg and I know that doesn't all go to athletics...a percentage does...so over a 20-30 year time frame it is easy to see why a larger enrollment gives a growing advantage to a school as well as their athletic teams.

As the old business saying goes...Sales (Money) solves all problems, and if you have a higher enrollment, you can solve a more problems than smaller schools.
I don't like the fact that a conference would kick someone out for being too good on the playing field, the business realities of the situation not only make sense, but also make UST a tough addition to any conference other than the WIAC or a higher division...it is for this reason alone that I don't think the ARC would invite UST, they would be in the same situation in the ARC that they just left in the MIAC...I don't think ARC teams would mind competing with UST on the field, but in fundraising, there are only 15 or 20 schools in the entirety of d3 that can compete by fundraising from alumni.

[TheChucker]

Why is the calculation that UST starts recruiting against WIAC schools any more than they already do? Even if UST were to become a WIAC member, it would still be a school smack dab in the heart of the Twin Cities and would compete against the same schools it already competes against.

Pat makes a good point here. From what I've seen, UST/Caruso have put a high priority on 3 areas. Twin Cities, Wisconsin, and Chicago. They recruit some nationally as well, but they've made their living in these areas. In part, this is why the WIAC is probably a better fit. It puts them even more squarely in their recruiting base.

UST also doesn't have 10,000 undergrads. That's their total enrollment number - undergrad is just north of 6k. If total enrollment is the number, then Bethel's enrollment is 6,500 (really it's 2,600ish undergrads).

WIAC undergrad enrollments:
UWEC - 9,900
UWL - 9,700
Stout - 8,100
UWRF - 5,700
UWSP - 7,800
UWO - 12,100
UWP - 7,500
UWW - 11,100

Again, this is a moot point. No one is patrolling the student union looking for football recruits. But if the MIAC presidents are correct, UST is screwed in the WIAC, how can they even hope to compete against such big, mean schools. 

I've seen the back and forth about the enrollment numbers and while I agree that number of students doesn't help much from a participation standpoint (open tryouts/regular students joining athletics) there is a factor about enrollment that I haven't seen talked about and that is fundraising.  From a business standpoint the reason you want high class academics is so you can produce a graduate who can get a higher paying job in the future and donate back to the school later.  So for me the biggest advantage to larger enrollments are more potential donors later and if you have a school with 1,400 students like Wartburg, trying to stay in the facilities arms race with UST at 6,000 students, you can see how the enrollment difference makes for an exponential advantage over the years.  For example: 50% of former students give $1000 each year
                     
                                        Wartburg                                         UST
                                     350 Grads/Year                         1,500 Grads/Year

Year 1                      175 Grads give $175,000               750 Grads give $750,000
Year 2                      350 Grads give $350,000               1500 Grads give $1,500,000
Year 3                      525 Grads give $525,000               2,250 Grads give $2,250,000
Year 4                      700 Grads give $700,000               3,000 Grads give $3,000,000
Year 5                      875 Grads give $875,000               3,750 Grads give $3,750,000

Total after 5 years            $2,625,000                                     $11,250,000

So after only 5 years of this enrollment difference UST has the ability to raise 5x the amount of $$$ as Wartburg and I know that doesn't all go to athletics...a percentage does...so over a 20-30 year time frame it is easy to see why a larger enrollment gives a growing advantage to a school as well as their athletic teams.

As the old business saying goes...Sales (Money) solves all problems, and if you have a higher enrollment, you can solve a more problems than smaller schools.
I don't like the fact that a conference would kick someone out for being too good on the playing field, the business realities of the situation not only make sense, but also make UST a tough addition to any conference other than the WIAC or a higher division...it is for this reason alone that I don't think the ARC would invite UST, they would be in the same situation in the ARC that they just left in the MIAC...I don't think ARC teams would mind competing with UST on the field, but in fundraising, there are only 15 or 20 schools in the entirety of d3 that can compete by fundraising from alumni.

To make your point, per the audited financial statements UST's private contributions were $22M-$24.6M 2017-2018 while Wartburg's were around $8M in 2017.

https://www.stthomas.edu/media/controllersoffice/pdf/USTJune302018FinancialStatements.pdf
http://www.govwiki.info/pdfs/Non-Profit/IA%20Wartburg%20College%202017.pdf

[Pat Coleman]

To make your point, per the audited financial statements UST's private contributions were $22M-$24.6M 2017-2018 while Wartburg's were around $8M in 2017.

https://www.stthomas.edu/media/controllersoffice/pdf/USTJune302018FinancialStatements.pdf
http://www.govwiki.info/pdfs/Non-Profit/IA%20Wartburg%20College%202017.pdf

That's weird that it's not 5x ... go figure.

[doolittledog]

84 days until the 2019 season kicks off. 

[formerd3db]

Pat:

As you may recall, we had recently exchanged comments on one of the other boards about some previous conference oustings in view of the UST incident-you mentioning about Wheaton of that conference and I mentioned about the Hillsdale College situation leaving the MIAA back in 1960 being somewhat similar (although, as you pointed out, Hillsdale currently being D2.)  Anyway, I noticed on the American Rivers Conference website, it is noted in its History section, that "According to the Iowa Conference Story, St. Ambrose and Loras were tossed back in 1954-55 [from the then-named IIAC] for being too good" compared to the other members of the conference (it also mentions about other members being ousted because of being too weak!)  A different conference, but another similar situation? Did the WIAC president's pull that from a page of history? Just kidding, but it does sound familar! And just another item to toss into the conversation!
 

[doolittledog]

I haven't had any luck finding links to the old newspaper stories, but around 20 years or so ago the IIAC was discussing dropping Dubuque, Upper Iowa, and William Penn for not being athletically competitive.  I remember reading that William Penn was already planning the move to the NAIA and was stating that even with athletic scholarships that move would reduce costs for them.  Dubuque was quoted in the article saying they were exploring all options for their athletics but it was their wish to stay in the IIAC. 

There wasn't too much of an uproar back then over the situation.  Maybe someone out there can have better luck digging up those old newspaper stories. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

Maybe I'm just an over-competitive SOB, but dropping a team because they are unwilling (or unable) to compete seems less egregious than dropping a team because they keep beating your butt.

(And I would assume they are glad they didn't drop Dubuque for not being competitive!)

[sportsknight]

I haven't had any luck finding links to the old newspaper stories, but around 20 years or so ago the IIAC was discussing dropping Dubuque, Upper Iowa, and William Penn for not being athletically competitive.  I remember reading that William Penn was already planning the move to the NAIA and was stating that even with athletic scholarships that move would reduce costs for them.  Dubuque was quoted in the article saying they were exploring all options for their athletics but it was their wish to stay in the IIAC. 

There wasn't too much of an uproar back then over the situation.  Maybe someone out there can have better luck digging up those old newspaper stories.

That would have been back in the era when UDubuque was in danger of closing up shop completely.

[sportsknight]

Congratulations to Luther on equaling their 2018 win total during a recent trip to Spain.
https://old.reddit.com/r/CFB/comments/c1p8bs/result_of_all_offseason_cfb_foreign_exhibition/

[5 Words or Less]

[hazzben]

Congratulations to Luther on equaling their 2018 win total during a recent trip to Spain.
https://old.reddit.com/r/CFB/comments/c1p8bs/result_of_all_offseason_cfb_foreign_exhibition/

Better kick Macalester out of Italy. Way too good. Way too much emphasis on winning & athletics. 

[doolittledog]

78 days until the 2019 season gets underway.

When do fall camps start?

When will the D3Football 2019 Kickoff be published??

[hazzben]

Great article about a great man. Very cool that he hasn't been forgotten, even at the national level.Ten years after his shooting death, football coach Ed Thomas still binds his Iowa community

Since it's behind a paywall:

Three letters hang high on a fence that separates Aplington-Parkersburg High School from the elementary school and represent Ed Thomas' legacy more than any memory ever could.

Outlined in black, filled in with white and hung diagonally, three Fs and a cross overlook the bus barn and The Sacred Acre. An enduring embodiment of a man.

The first F stands for faith — Thomas' guiding principle was both unmistakable and unshakeable. "His faith was always first in everything he did," Aaron Thomas says. "And I think he did a great job of finding ways to incorporate it, never beating anybody over the head, never preaching at them."

The second F stands for family. In Thomas' world, his nuclear unit included Jan, sons Aaron and Todd, their spouses and his grandchildren. For those who knew Thomas outside of his home, he was family, too. "When I spoke at his funeral, and I was thinking about what I was going to say, it's like my best friend died," Kerns says. "And that's really selfish, because there are literally hundreds, if not more, people that would say Ed was his best friend."

The final F is for football. "We would give him a hard time that family was about an inch ahead of football," Aaron says. "When people would ask questions, he was very good at having a one-on-one conversation. Football was his passion, without a doubt."

Faith, Family, Football. Devotion, Love, Perseverance.