FB: American Rivers Conference

[doolittledog]

There was talk on here earlier this year about St Thomas possibly landing in the WIAC or ARC before it started looking more probable the Tommies would jump straight to D1.  To go along with the conversation about the coalition of the losers talk in the MIAC, does anyone from the MIAC or ARC envision a future where the strong schools in the MIAC or the loser schools in the MIAC would look to neighboring states like Iowa or Wisconsin and try to form new conferences?  Especially with talk that in the near future we might see school closures in the Midwest?

[sjusection105]

There was talk on here earlier this year about St Thomas possibly landing in the WIAC or ARC before it started looking more probable the Tommies would jump straight to D1.  To go along with the conversation about the coalition of the losers talk in the MIAC, does anyone from the MIAC or ARC envision a future where the strong schools in the MIAC or the loser schools in the MIAC would look to neighboring states like Iowa or Wisconsin and try to form new conferences?  Especially with talk that in the near future we might see school closures in the Midwest?

It has been talked about on MIAC board. It would be good for competition, but bad for travel, especially sports with multiple games in a week like basketball or baseball.

[jamtod]

There was talk on here earlier this year about St Thomas possibly landing in the WIAC or ARC before it started looking more probable the Tommies would jump straight to D1.  To go along with the conversation about the coalition of the losers talk in the MIAC, does anyone from the MIAC or ARC envision a future where the strong schools in the MIAC or the loser schools in the MIAC would look to neighboring states like Iowa or Wisconsin and try to form new conferences?  Especially with talk that in the near future we might see school closures in the Midwest?

It has been talked about on MIAC board. It would be good for competition, but bad for travel, especially sports with multiple games in a week like basketball or baseball.

The way things are progressing (football and beyond), I don't see how a Division 4 type proposal doesn't get considered again. I know there was a time where it was evaluated and didn't get support, but things have changed. There was also a time where the MIAC wasn't looking to kick out UST or where UST evaluated D1 and decided it didn't make sense.

The problem with the COL talk and frustration is that I can see a place for some institutions that want to have a token participation in sports without a major emphasis on national success and I'd like to be fine with that, assuming we can lump those schools into the same place where they can play the glorified intramural games that they desire.

[DuffMan]

The problem with that would be that in order for it to work, you'd really have to eliminate any sort of championship.  If not, you will inevitably end up with schools that place emphasis on striving for a championship and schools that do not (which is essentially where we are at now).

[Baldini]

Everyone wants to win. Some don't have the resources, the deck is stack against them from the start and others just are not very good at it. The ones really screwing things up are the pathological cheaters that will do anything to win. There is no utopia, some people are always going to do what those some people do.

[jamtod]

The problem with that would be that in order for it to work, you'd really have to eliminate any sort of championship.  If not, you will inevitably end up with schools that place emphasis on striving for a championship and schools that do not (which is essentially where we are at now).

I think there are plenty of schools that wouldn't have an issue with that (on a national level).

[Baldini]

The problem with that would be that in order for it to work, you'd really have to eliminate any sort of championship.  If not, you will inevitably end up with schools that place emphasis on striving for a championship and schools that do not (which is essentially where we are at now).

I think there are plenty of schools that wouldn't have an issue with that (on a national level).

Isn't that what they have with the NCCAA, USCAA and ACCA? The catch is that they all still have championships.

[hazzben]

If the ARC & MIAC combined this would be the schools I'd see making the most sense from each.

ARC/MIAC:
Central
Wartburg
Simpson
Coe
Dubuque
SJU
Bethel
GAC
Concordia (brutal travel)

COL (not really fair to lump the ARC schools with this label, but oh well):
St. Olaf (they really probably belong with the others, but their baby of a prez would be too scared)
Hamline
Carleton
St. Mary's (no FB)
Augsburg (I could see them wanting to be in the other for wrestling purposes)
Luther
Loras
BV
Nebraska Wesleyan (brutal travel)
Macalester

1. It would make for much greater competitive balance.
2. The travel would stink, especially for NWU and Concordia.
3. The WIAC would no longer be the best top to bottom conference.
4. It kills some rivalries, but enhances others (St. Olaf/Luther)

I just don't think it makes sense though for travel purposes. And ultimately, you're actually hurting the playoff field. Now a much diminished conference gets an auto-bid (COL) and a much stronger conference still only sends 1 school (carnage could be a real problem).

[jamtod]

If the ARC & MIAC combined this would be the schools I'd see making the most sense from each.

ARC/MIAC:
Central
Wartburg
Simpson
Coe
Dubuque
SJU
Bethel
GAC
Concordia (brutal travel)

COL (not really fair to lump the ARC schools with this label, but oh well):
St. Olaf (they really probably belong with the others, but their baby of a prez would be too scared)
Hamline
Carleton
St. Mary's (no FB)
Augsburg (I could see them wanting to be in the other for wrestling purposes)
Luther
Loras
BV
Nebraska Wesleyan (brutal travel)
Macalester

1. It would make for much greater competitive balance.
2. The travel would stink, especially for NWU and Concordia.
3. The WIAC would no longer be the best top to bottom conference.
4. It kills some rivalries, but enhances others (St. Olaf/Luther)

I just don't think it makes sense though for travel purposes. And ultimately, you're actually hurting the playoff field. Now a much diminished conference gets an auto-bid (COL) and a much stronger conference still only sends 1 school (carnage could be a real problem).

Is this built around the assumption of football? Or taking into account other sports/general athletic department commitment?

[Mr. Ypsi]

If the ARC & MIAC combined this would be the schools I'd see making the most sense from each.

ARC/MIAC:
Central
Wartburg
Simpson
Coe
Dubuque
SJU
Bethel
GAC
Concordia (brutal travel)

COL (not really fair to lump the ARC schools with this label, but oh well):
St. Olaf (they really probably belong with the others, but their baby of a prez would be too scared)
Hamline
Carleton
St. Mary's (no FB)
Augsburg (I could see them wanting to be in the other for wrestling purposes)
Luther
Loras
BV
Nebraska Wesleyan (brutal travel)
Macalester

1. It would make for much greater competitive balance.
2. The travel would stink, especially for NWU and Concordia.
3. The WIAC would no longer be the best top to bottom conference.
4. It kills some rivalries, but enhances others (St. Olaf/Luther)

I just don't think it makes sense though for travel purposes. And ultimately, you're actually hurting the playoff field. Now a much diminished conference gets an auto-bid (COL) and a much stronger conference still only sends 1 school (carnage could be a real problem).

Is this built around the assumption of football? Or taking into account other sports/general athletic department commitment?

I'd say it is obviously largely (if not solely) based on football.  After all, he has the men's basketball national champion from less than two years ago (Neb Wes) in with the COL!

[jamtod]

If the ARC & MIAC combined this would be the schools I'd see making the most sense from each.

ARC/MIAC:
Central
Wartburg
Simpson
Coe
Dubuque
SJU
Bethel
GAC
Concordia (brutal travel)

COL (not really fair to lump the ARC schools with this label, but oh well):
St. Olaf (they really probably belong with the others, but their baby of a prez would be too scared)
Hamline
Carleton
St. Mary's (no FB)
Augsburg (I could see them wanting to be in the other for wrestling purposes)
Luther
Loras
BV
Nebraska Wesleyan (brutal travel)
Macalester

1. It would make for much greater competitive balance.
2. The travel would stink, especially for NWU and Concordia.
3. The WIAC would no longer be the best top to bottom conference.
4. It kills some rivalries, but enhances others (St. Olaf/Luther)

I just don't think it makes sense though for travel purposes. And ultimately, you're actually hurting the playoff field. Now a much diminished conference gets an auto-bid (COL) and a much stronger conference still only sends 1 school (carnage could be a real problem).

Is this built around the assumption of football? Or taking into account other sports/general athletic department commitment?

I'd say it is obviously largely (if not solely) based on football.  After all, he has the men's basketball national champion from less than two years ago (Neb Wes) in with the COL!

I suspected as much, but there is a reference to Augsburg for Wrestling concerns and St Mary's is included even though they don't have football and Macalester doesn't play MIAC football.

[OzJohnnie]

If the ARC & MIAC combined this would be the schools I'd see making the most sense from each.

ARC/MIAC:
Central
Wartburg
Simpson
Coe
Dubuque
SJU
Bethel
GAC
Concordia (brutal travel)

Wowzers.  I would pay 50% more for the Johnnie video to watch that lineup.  Easily the toughest conference in D3 football.  What a bloodbath of a schedule.  A D3 SEC even.  Whoever came out undefeated against that lineup would be a monster.

Perhaps, like D1 hockey, D3 football will eventually organise specialist conferences.  General sport for everything else, bloodbaths for football (along with basic level conferences perhaps with no national competition).  And even thought basketball faces similar national competition pressures, it takes far less money to field a competitive team and if you don't field a competitive team you don't literally get your asses beat when you get your asses beat.

[OzJohnnie]

You know, if D3 football split into national competition conferences and non-national conferences then then the post season field would be much smaller.  16 or even only 8 automatic qualifiers.  Flying would be affordable and reasonable seeding could be accomplished.  It could actually be pretty good for the sport.

[hazzben]

If the ARC & MIAC combined this would be the schools I'd see making the most sense from each.

ARC/MIAC:
Central
Wartburg
Simpson
Coe
Dubuque
SJU
Bethel
GAC
Concordia (brutal travel)

COL (not really fair to lump the ARC schools with this label, but oh well):
St. Olaf (they really probably belong with the others, but their baby of a prez would be too scared)
Hamline
Carleton
St. Mary's (no FB)
Augsburg (I could see them wanting to be in the other for wrestling purposes)
Luther
Loras
BV
Nebraska Wesleyan (brutal travel)
Macalester

1. It would make for much greater competitive balance.
2. The travel would stink, especially for NWU and Concordia.
3. The WIAC would no longer be the best top to bottom conference.
4. It kills some rivalries, but enhances others (St. Olaf/Luther)

I just don't think it makes sense though for travel purposes. And ultimately, you're actually hurting the playoff field. Now a much diminished conference gets an auto-bid (COL) and a much stronger conference still only sends 1 school (carnage could be a real problem).

Is this built around the assumption of football? Or taking into account other sports/general athletic department commitment?

I'd say it is obviously largely (if not solely) based on football.  After all, he has the men's basketball national champion from less than two years ago (Neb Wes) in with the COL!

I'm well aware of NWU's basketball chops. And track and field for that matter. But I think they're on too much of an island to be attractive to the other schools and they get stuck with BV, who is a definite fit for the other bunch.

[hazzben]

You know, if D3 football split into national competition conferences and non-national conferences then then the post season field would be much smaller.  16 or even only 8 automatic qualifiers.  Flying would be affordable and reasonable seeding could be accomplished.  It could actually be pretty good for the sport.

Don't disagree Oz. But I think it's a lot easier to sell ousting a school like UST to your alumni than to admit you don't want to compete on a national level. And some schools do in certain sports and not in others. But it would make the playoffs much more manageable in terms of travel. And the non-national schools could still do regional "bowl games" where conference champs play each other for a sort of post season for those players. I just don't see it happening.