FB: American Rivers Conference

[hazzben]

The tournament isn't designed to get the best 32 teams in the country in, so I wouldn't use that as your standard.

It's designed to get the champion from every qualifying conference, and the best at-large teams to fill the remainder of the field.

I understand the idea of the tournament and think that it is equitable and fair. But in terms of determining who the best team in the country is the best way to do it would be to let the best 32 teams in the country go at it.

I say this as someone who likes the current system and thinks the best possible change would be to go to 40 teams to allow for more at large bids a chance at competing for the title.

Where is that budget coming from? Where is the extra week of playoff football coming from? In terms of access, more teams in the playoffs would bring football in line with other sports. But that decision doesn't come in a vacuum. Honestly, with the direction FBS/D1 seems to be heading, I'm glad we have 32 at this point. I could see a future where power leagues break away from the NCAA all together as conslidation to super conferences for football continues. D3 playoff funding comes from the March Madness pool, but it's naive to think a massive reshaping of the power conferences and NCAA affiliation couldn't also effect how they think about March Madness. I'd hate to see it, but I also never thought I'd see a day when USC, UCLA, Wash, and Oregon were in the B1G.

[MediaGuy]

The tournament isn't designed to get the best 32 teams in the country in, so I wouldn't use that as your standard.

It's designed to get the champion from every qualifying conference, and the best at-large teams to fill the remainder of the field.

I understand the idea of the tournament and think that it is equitable and fair. But in terms of determining who the best team in the country is the best way to do it would be to let the best 32 teams in the country go at it.

I say this as someone who likes the current system and thinks the best possible change would be to go to 40 teams to allow for more at large bids a chance at competing for the title.

Maybe Pat can shed some light on the thinking behind this but it would seem to me to be a much easier fix without adding weeks to the schedule or teams to the playoffs to just require a conference to have 8 or more teams to qualify for an AQ.  It seems crazy to me that a team can play a full half of their schedule as non-conference games and still get an AQ.

Currently there are 10 conferences under 8 teams (Centennial, Commonwealth Coast, Emipre 8, ECFC, Landmark, Liberty, Michigan, New Jersey, Southern Cal and Upper Midwest).  The only "isolated" teams are the Southern Cal teams, but everyone else looks to be in an area where it would be pretty easy to consolidate conferences a bit and have more pool C bids.  Or at least go back to Pool B bids where there avenues for good teams in small conferences to make the postseason.

With an 8 team minimum conference rule and some added Pool B bids you could have 18 AQ (Pool A), 5 bids from small conferences (Pool B) and still have room for 9 Pool C bids.

I would think this would also help team schedule non-conference games.  When you only have 3 games to schedule every year instead of 5.

Also I know that most of the small conferences also include schools that don't have football so they are actually bigger than 6 teams. 

It feels like 10 years ago when there were more Pool C bids available, there were less good 9-1 teams watching the playoffs from home.  I know there will still be arguments over the last teams left on the board no matter how many Pool C bids there are, but a world where a loss to a top 5 team (i.e Wheaton or Coe) doesn't put you all the way off the table is a better world in my opinion.

[hazzben]

Totally agree MediaGuy. The issue is a lot of these small leagues were created in reaction to the threshold being set at 6 teams. But it makes much more sense to say a league needs 7 or ideally 8 teams to get an auto bid.

[Pat Coleman]

As it's being discussed at this point, the extra week would be added onto the end of the season, with a title game in the first week of January like the FCS does.

The extra money for eight more teams is being spitballed as about $600,000. Not an insignificant number, to be sure. But more money is coming in as the NCAA's updated media deals become effective.

[DriftlessDuhawk]

Maybe Pat can shed some light on the thinking behind this but it would seem to me to be a much easier fix without adding weeks to the schedule or teams to the playoffs to just require a conference to have 8 or more teams to qualify for an AQ.  It seems crazy to me that a team can play a full half of their schedule as non-conference games and still get an AQ.

Currently there are 10 conferences under 8 teams (Centennial, Commonwealth Coast, Emipre 8, ECFC, Landmark, Liberty, Michigan, New Jersey, Southern Cal and Upper Midwest).  The only "isolated" teams are the Southern Cal teams, but everyone else looks to be in an area where it would be pretty easy to consolidate conferences a bit and have more pool C bids.  Or at least go back to Pool B bids where there avenues for good teams in small conferences to make the postseason.

With an 8 team minimum conference rule and some added Pool B bids you could have 18 AQ (Pool A), 5 bids from small conferences (Pool B) and still have room for 9 Pool C bids.

I would think this would also help team schedule non-conference games.  When you only have 3 games to schedule every year instead of 5.

Also I know that most of the small conferences also include schools that don't have football so they are actually bigger than 6 teams. 

It feels like 10 years ago when there were more Pool C bids available, there were less good 9-1 teams watching the playoffs from home.  I know there will still be arguments over the last teams left on the board no matter how many Pool C bids there are, but a world where a loss to a top 5 team (i.e Wheaton or Coe) doesn't put you all the way off the table is a better world in my opinion.

I think that this would also be a great "fix" to the "problem". I understand that the rule to lower the number of teams a conference needed for an at large bid was directed at some of the more fringe sports to help out schools that are on D3 islands. But when talking about football it makes no sense. Schools in the PAC have to win 10 games to get an AQ and schools in the CCC only have to win 5. Considering this rule was newly passed it feels like it would be easier to expand the playoffs to 40 teams.

[doolittledog]

Interesting game at Dubuque yesterday.  Game goes into overtime.  Dubuque makes a field goal to take a 3 point lead.  Dubuque makes a stop on 4th down to make what they thought was the winning stop.  After the players are all on the field celebrating, the officials throw a flag for illegal substitution.  On the next play, Coe running back gets tackled and fumbles.  The ball goes into the endzone and is recovered by Coe.  The official right there immediately signals the runner was down and motions for 2nd down.  The officials announce, the call on the field is the runner was down.  The officials then huddle, and come out of the huddle and say the call on the field is a Coe fumble, Coe recovers in the endzone, Coe wins.  Then the whole crew sprinted off the field. 

Devastating end to the game.  Even as a Dubuque fan, I think that was bad officiating. 

[5 Words or Less]

Luther reschedules 2024 Homecoming date.

https://www.luther.edu/news/luther-college-announces-2024-homecoming-date-change

[doolittledog]

Luther reschedules 2024 Homecoming date.

https://www.luther.edu/news/luther-college-announces-2024-homecoming-date-change

From that article
A change in the overall schedule by the American Rivers Conference (in association with the NCAA) regarding the first week of competition for the entirety of Division III has resulted in the shift of the American Rivers Conference schedule for all members.

So what is going on with this schedule change?  I noticed the UD homecoming is early next year (Oct. 4-6) and theirs is usually later in October. 

[MediaGuy]

Interesting game at Dubuque yesterday.  Game goes into overtime.  Dubuque makes a field goal to take a 3 point lead.  Dubuque makes a stop on 4th down to make what they thought was the winning stop.  After the players are all on the field celebrating, the officials throw a flag for illegal substitution.  On the next play, Coe running back gets tackled and fumbles.  The ball goes into the endzone and is recovered by Coe.  The official right there immediately signals the runner was down and motions for 2nd down.  The officials announce, the call on the field is the runner was down.  The officials then huddle, and come out of the huddle and say the call on the field is a Coe fumble, Coe recovers in the endzone, Coe wins.  Then the whole crew sprinted off the field. 

Devastating end to the game.  Even as a Dubuque fan, I think that was bad officiating.

I was watching that game on the internet and you could see the side judge make 3 separate calls on the last play.  It really reminded me of the interception/TD a few years back when the NFL officials were on strike.  I think in the end it was the right call, but it seems officials are in a hurry to make a signal instead of getting it right the first time.  The side judge first signaled touchback (waved his left arm up and down) saying the ball was fumbled out of the endzone.  then he immediately marked the spot of the fumble and signaled "2" with his hand calling it down at the 1 and 2nd down.  Then after a short officials meeting the referee ruled it a touchdown.

I think it is easier for the crowd to accept if you throw your beanbag to mark the spot of the fumble, then immediately meet as a crew to make sure you get the call right.  At least that way there isn't the emotional rollercoaster of going through 3 different calls.

And on a side note, I have officiated at the high school level in the past, and it seems like officials have such thinner skin than they had 10-15 years ago.  The rules used to be pretty simple, don't show up the officials, don't attack them personally, and don't use a few magic words.  Other than that you were good talking to an official from the sideline.  Also it seems like officials are waaaay to worried about the crowd than they should be.  When I officiated, I was barely aware there was a crowd at all, it's not my job to listen/react to them.  I've just noticed some officials looking over their shoulders at the crowd when they're getting critical or glaring at the pressbox if there is a scoreboard/clock issue. 

When it comes down to it, everyone has a job to do.  Players play, coaches put their kids in the best position to win (which includes riding the officials from time to time) and crowds support their team (with cheers or boos from time to time).  Its not always easy, but when everyone just does their job, we can all go home proud of a good game and with the respect earned.

[Pat Coleman]

Luther reschedules 2024 Homecoming date.

https://www.luther.edu/news/luther-college-announces-2024-homecoming-date-change

From that article
A change in the overall schedule by the American Rivers Conference (in association with the NCAA) regarding the first week of competition for the entirety of Division III has resulted in the shift of the American Rivers Conference schedule for all members.

So what is going on with this schedule change?  I noticed the UD homecoming is early next year (Oct. 4-6) and theirs is usually later in October.

Week 1 next year should be Saturday, Sept. 7, and not sure this has changed. Might be that the ARC aligned its master schedule incorrectly?

[doolittledog]

Interesting game at Dubuque yesterday.  Game goes into overtime.  Dubuque makes a field goal to take a 3 point lead.  Dubuque makes a stop on 4th down to make what they thought was the winning stop.  After the players are all on the field celebrating, the officials throw a flag for illegal substitution.  On the next play, Coe running back gets tackled and fumbles.  The ball goes into the endzone and is recovered by Coe.  The official right there immediately signals the runner was down and motions for 2nd down.  The officials announce, the call on the field is the runner was down.  The officials then huddle, and come out of the huddle and say the call on the field is a Coe fumble, Coe recovers in the endzone, Coe wins.  Then the whole crew sprinted off the field. 

Devastating end to the game.  Even as a Dubuque fan, I think that was bad officiating.

I was watching that game on the internet and you could see the side judge make 3 separate calls on the last play.  It really reminded me of the interception/TD a few years back when the NFL officials were on strike.  I think in the end it was the right call, but it seems officials are in a hurry to make a signal instead of getting it right the first time.  The side judge first signaled touchback (waved his left arm up and down) saying the ball was fumbled out of the endzone.  then he immediately marked the spot of the fumble and signaled "2" with his hand calling it down at the 1 and 2nd down.  Then after a short officials meeting the referee ruled it a touchdown.

I think it is easier for the crowd to accept if you throw your beanbag to mark the spot of the fumble, then immediately meet as a crew to make sure you get the call right.  At least that way there isn't the emotional rollercoaster of going through 3 different calls.

And on a side note, I have officiated at the high school level in the past, and it seems like officials have such thinner skin than they had 10-15 years ago.  The rules used to be pretty simple, don't show up the officials, don't attack them personally, and don't use a few magic words.  Other than that you were good talking to an official from the sideline.  Also it seems like officials are waaaay to worried about the crowd than they should be.  When I officiated, I was barely aware there was a crowd at all, it's not my job to listen/react to them.  I've just noticed some officials looking over their shoulders at the crowd when they're getting critical or glaring at the pressbox if there is a scoreboard/clock issue. 

When it comes down to it, everyone has a job to do.  Players play, coaches put their kids in the best position to win (which includes riding the officials from time to time) and crowds support their team (with cheers or boos from time to time).  Its not always easy, but when everyone just does their job, we can all go home proud of a good game and with the respect earned.

Thank you MediaGuy.  Sometimes I figure I'm looking too closely as a fan and am not seeing things as a neutral would see it.  Your comments align with what I was seeing.  And the ref had barely got the words out over the PA and they all took off in a sprint to get out of thre.  To further note what I think what you were getting at, Dubuque sure seems to get personal foul penalties that other schools never seem to get called against them.  I'm talking about simple things like throwing your arms up in the air gets flagged.  Dubuque got a 4th quarter unsportsmanlike  penalty on a player talking to the ref at the same time a Coe player was at the Dubuque sideline taunting anyone near him while the rest of the Coe team was huddled up on their sideline. Coe didn't get flagged while Dubuque did.  It gets frustrating to see one team held to a different standard as others.   

[DriftlessDuhawk]

Thank you MediaGuy.  Sometimes I figure I'm looking too closely as a fan and am not seeing things as a neutral would see it.  Your comments align with what I was seeing.  And the ref had barely got the words out over the PA and they all took off in a sprint to get out of thre.  To further note what I think what you were getting at, Dubuque sure seems to get personal foul penalties that other schools never seem to get called against them.  I'm talking about simple things like throwing your arms up in the air gets flagged.  Dubuque got a 4th quarter unsportsmanlike  penalty on a player talking to the ref at the same time a Coe player was at the Dubuque sideline taunting anyone near him while the rest of the Coe team was huddled up on their sideline. Coe didn't get flagged while Dubuque did.  It gets frustrating to see one team held to a different standard as others.

I can confidently tell you that the league office is very well aware of how ud plays the game of football and is actively looking for unsportsmanlikes and personal fouls. Not saying that it is every player in the program but they have developed a reputation over the years and the coaches in the rest of the league have voiced their opinions about the matter. I have heard from people at multiple schools in the league that they have been reached out to by the head official at the league office prior to playing ud saying that they will be calling the game tighter due to the nature of these games. Do with that information what you will...

[doolittledog]

Thank you MediaGuy.  Sometimes I figure I'm looking too closely as a fan and am not seeing things as a neutral would see it.  Your comments align with what I was seeing.  And the ref had barely got the words out over the PA and they all took off in a sprint to get out of thre.  To further note what I think what you were getting at, Dubuque sure seems to get personal foul penalties that other schools never seem to get called against them.  I'm talking about simple things like throwing your arms up in the air gets flagged.  Dubuque got a 4th quarter unsportsmanlike  penalty on a player talking to the ref at the same time a Coe player was at the Dubuque sideline taunting anyone near him while the rest of the Coe team was huddled up on their sideline. Coe didn't get flagged while Dubuque did.  It gets frustrating to see one team held to a different standard as others.

I can confidently tell you that the league office is very well aware of how ud plays the game of football and is actively looking for unsportsmanlikes and personal fouls. Not saying that it is every player in the program but they have developed a reputation over the years and the coaches in the rest of the league have voiced their opinions about the matter. I have heard from people at multiple schools in the league that they have been reached out to by the head official at the league office prior to playing ud saying that they will be calling the game tighter due to the nature of these games. Do with that information what you will...

Perhaps that explains the number of times I have watched an official staring at an opposing player taunting a UD player and when the UD player shoves them away a flag flies and UD gets penalized.  You can't have 2 sets of rules.  That is disturbing that the league office is doing this.       

[MediaGuy]

Thank you MediaGuy.  Sometimes I figure I'm looking too closely as a fan and am not seeing things as a neutral would see it.  Your comments align with what I was seeing.  And the ref had barely got the words out over the PA and they all took off in a sprint to get out of thre.  To further note what I think what you were getting at, Dubuque sure seems to get personal foul penalties that other schools never seem to get called against them.  I'm talking about simple things like throwing your arms up in the air gets flagged.  Dubuque got a 4th quarter unsportsmanlike  penalty on a player talking to the ref at the same time a Coe player was at the Dubuque sideline taunting anyone near him while the rest of the Coe team was huddled up on their sideline. Coe didn't get flagged while Dubuque did.  It gets frustrating to see one team held to a different standard as others.

I can confidently tell you that the league office is very well aware of how ud plays the game of football and is actively looking for unsportsmanlikes and personal fouls. Not saying that it is every player in the program but they have developed a reputation over the years and the coaches in the rest of the league have voiced their opinions about the matter. I have heard from people at multiple schools in the league that they have been reached out to by the head official at the league office prior to playing ud saying that they will be calling the game tighter due to the nature of these games. Do with that information what you will...

Perhaps that explains the number of times I have watched an official staring at an opposing player taunting a UD player and when the UD player shoves them away a flag flies and UD gets penalized.  You can't have 2 sets of rules.  That is disturbing that the league office is doing this.       

Not trying to pick a fight here, but while I did say that I was critical of "how" the play got called on Saturday, I do think it was the right call.  As to your comment about having 2 sets of rules.  I have been around the ARC since the late 90's and I have only seen a few "unsportsmanlike" things that stand out.

I will preface this by saying I understand Wartburg's coach was ejected from a game while leading by 30+ points and I don't think that was very sportsmanlike, but Wartburg and their HC should have a little extra "monitoring" of the sideline to make sure those types of things don't happen again. 

Incident 1: Last play of first half of Wartburg game in 1999, Wartburg leading comfortably, and their starting QB was hit late out of bounds on Wartburg sideline.  General pushing and shoving ensues but is under control from 2 officials there...The ENTIRE opposing team left their sideline headed  to Wartburg's side of the field in what I can only assume is an effort to start a fight.  Coaches from both sides have to physically restrain players from a physical fight at halftime. 

Incident 2: Wartburg homecoming in 2012, Wartburg and visiting team play a tight game, which Wartburg wins on a missed field goal to end the game.  Afterwards, visiting head coach runs toward the locker room actively avoiding shaking hands with the Wartburg coaches.  Wartburg HC chases visiting coach down to shake hands, verbal confruntation ensues.

Both times the visiting team was University of Dubuque, under different head coaches, and possibly different Athletic Directors...so maybe there's a bit of an earned reputation that comes from the program as a whole and not just a hot-headed coach or player.
 
I'm sure there have been times in the past that other teams have thought that Wartburg, Central or Coe have had problems as well.  But when I chat with other people in the ARC...Coaches, SIDs, Media, (not fans) about who is the least disciplined, and sportsmanlike in the ARC, it seems that everyone I've talked to says UD. 

So wondering why UD seems to be treated differently, kind of sounds like the parents of the disruptive kid in class, blaming the school board for their kid always being sent to the principal's office. 

Maybe that kids needs a bit more discipline at home so the school doesn't have to do it for you.

Not trying to poke the bear, just giving you a non UD perspective.

[SpartyBlue]

I only watched the replay online after reading doolittle's post and as a UD fan but football-neutral observer, it does look like they got the final call of fumble and recovery in the end zone correct, even if the side judge looks like he's signalling the ball carrier down. What you can't see are the mechanics of the illegal substitution call that would have ended the game on the prior fourth down.  What happened there?