FB: American Rivers Conference

[MediaGuy]

I only watched the replay online after reading doolittle's post and as a UD fan but football-neutral observer, it does look like they got the final call of fumble and recovery in the end zone correct, even if the side judge looks like he's signalling the ball carrier down. What you can't see are the mechanics of the illegal substitution call that would have ended the game on the prior fourth down.  What happened there?

Before the play, there was a timeout, where the play-by-play guy wondered if Coe would kick and tie the game or go for it.  After the timeout, Coe left the offense on the field.  In those cases, it's easy for the Defense to get a bit confused about what personnel should be on the field, so I assume there were 12 players in formation on the defense when the ball was snapped.  The only other times I've seen that call would be a player running off the field and not getting to the sideline fast enough.  If it was a player from the sideline standing on the field, that should be a sideline warning.

[SpartyBlue]

Right, that's what you couldn't see on the video.  No one looked to be complaining too much on the UD side, though.

[MediaGuy]

Right, that's what you couldn't see on the video.  No one looked to be complaining too much on the UD side, though.

I checked with someone who has access to the ARC film database, where they upload the "all 22" game film, and there are definitely 12 players in formation for UD defense when the ball is snapped.

[doolittledog]

Thank you MediaGuy.  Sometimes I figure I'm looking too closely as a fan and am not seeing things as a neutral would see it.  Your comments align with what I was seeing.  And the ref had barely got the words out over the PA and they all took off in a sprint to get out of thre.  To further note what I think what you were getting at, Dubuque sure seems to get personal foul penalties that other schools never seem to get called against them.  I'm talking about simple things like throwing your arms up in the air gets flagged.  Dubuque got a 4th quarter unsportsmanlike  penalty on a player talking to the ref at the same time a Coe player was at the Dubuque sideline taunting anyone near him while the rest of the Coe team was huddled up on their sideline. Coe didn't get flagged while Dubuque did.  It gets frustrating to see one team held to a different standard as others.

I can confidently tell you that the league office is very well aware of how ud plays the game of football and is actively looking for unsportsmanlikes and personal fouls. Not saying that it is every player in the program but they have developed a reputation over the years and the coaches in the rest of the league have voiced their opinions about the matter. I have heard from people at multiple schools in the league that they have been reached out to by the head official at the league office prior to playing ud saying that they will be calling the game tighter due to the nature of these games. Do with that information what you will...

Perhaps that explains the number of times I have watched an official staring at an opposing player taunting a UD player and when the UD player shoves them away a flag flies and UD gets penalized.  You can't have 2 sets of rules.  That is disturbing that the league office is doing this.       

Not trying to pick a fight here, but while I did say that I was critical of "how" the play got called on Saturday, I do think it was the right call.  As to your comment about having 2 sets of rules.  I have been around the ARC since the late 90's and I have only seen a few "unsportsmanlike" things that stand out.

I will preface this by saying I understand Wartburg's coach was ejected from a game while leading by 30+ points and I don't think that was very sportsmanlike, but Wartburg and their HC should have a little extra "monitoring" of the sideline to make sure those types of things don't happen again. 

Incident 1: Last play of first half of Wartburg game in 1999, Wartburg leading comfortably, and their starting QB was hit late out of bounds on Wartburg sideline.  General pushing and shoving ensues but is under control from 2 officials there...The ENTIRE opposing team left their sideline headed  to Wartburg's side of the field in what I can only assume is an effort to start a fight.  Coaches from both sides have to physically restrain players from a physical fight at halftime. 

Incident 2: Wartburg homecoming in 2012, Wartburg and visiting team play a tight game, which Wartburg wins on a missed field goal to end the game.  Afterwards, visiting head coach runs toward the locker room actively avoiding shaking hands with the Wartburg coaches.  Wartburg HC chases visiting coach down to shake hands, verbal confruntation ensues.

Both times the visiting team was University of Dubuque, under different head coaches, and possibly different Athletic Directors...so maybe there's a bit of an earned reputation that comes from the program as a whole and not just a hot-headed coach or player.
 
I'm sure there have been times in the past that other teams have thought that Wartburg, Central or Coe have had problems as well.  But when I chat with other people in the ARC...Coaches, SIDs, Media, (not fans) about who is the least disciplined, and sportsmanlike in the ARC, it seems that everyone I've talked to says UD. 

So wondering why UD seems to be treated differently, kind of sounds like the parents of the disruptive kid in class, blaming the school board for their kid always being sent to the principal's office. 

Maybe that kids needs a bit more discipline at home so the school doesn't have to do it for you.

Not trying to poke the bear, just giving you a non UD perspective.

I appreciate this.  I have said before I have blue tinted glasses. 

When talking about UD, as for 1999, that is a long time ago.  Different coach, different AD, different lots of things. 

As for that 2012 UD/Wartburg game, At the end of the game we were upset with Zweifel when we saw him walking away and thought he should have done better.  He said later he wished he had handled it better.  I have never seen him do that since that game, but for having done it that time, 11 years later he still gets called out for it.   

Here we can also get into perceptions.  Often on here Wartburg has been described as a team with swagger.  UD as out of control. From that 2012 UD/Wartburg game, UD TE Miles Hookstead, after getting tackled into the Wartburg bench was put into a bear hug and not let back onto the field by a Wartburg player.  In full view of the ref that did not throw a flag.  I was watching from the UD stands.  Also in that game after the majority of calls against the Knights the refs would get surrounded by Wartburg players yelling.  There was twice that F-bombs were dropped that we could hear.  No flags.  This was brought up on this board back then.  For fans of one team their players are passionate, for fans of the other team they are unhinged and out of control.       

 

 

[doolittledog]

After seeing the conversation with SpartyBlue and MediaGuy I reread what I earlier posted.  What I wrote and what I meant didn't really match up.  I think they got the call correct.  It was just how it went down.  The official came over the PA and announced "the call on the field is the runner was down at the one"  Then after what seemed like just a few seconds of talking came over the PA and announced "the call on the field is Coe fumbled, recovered the ball in the endzone, Coe wins"  Then they all made a bee line out of there.  What I would have liked to have seen was a longer discussion. 

From the stands we saw the ref signal he was down at the one.  We didn't notice until MediaGuy mentioned the ref initially called the ball out of the endzone before changing to the runner was down.  As MediaGuy said, "I think it is easier for the crowd to accept if you throw your beanbag to mark the spot of the fumble, then immediately meet as a crew to make sure you get the call right.  At least that way there isn't the emotional rollercoaster of going through 3 different calls."

[Spurrier]

Thank you MediaGuy.  Sometimes I figure I'm looking too closely as a fan and am not seeing things as a neutral would see it.  Your comments align with what I was seeing.  And the ref had barely got the words out over the PA and they all took off in a sprint to get out of thre.  To further note what I think what you were getting at, Dubuque sure seems to get personal foul penalties that other schools never seem to get called against them.  I'm talking about simple things like throwing your arms up in the air gets flagged.  Dubuque got a 4th quarter unsportsmanlike  penalty on a player talking to the ref at the same time a Coe player was at the Dubuque sideline taunting anyone near him while the rest of the Coe team was huddled up on their sideline. Coe didn't get flagged while Dubuque did.  It gets frustrating to see one team held to a different standard as others.

I can confidently tell you that the league office is very well aware of how ud plays the game of football and is actively looking for unsportsmanlikes and personal fouls. Not saying that it is every player in the program but they have developed a reputation over the years and the coaches in the rest of the league have voiced their opinions about the matter. I have heard from people at multiple schools in the league that they have been reached out to by the head official at the league office prior to playing ud saying that they will be calling the game tighter due to the nature of these games. Do with that information what you will...

Perhaps that explains the number of times I have watched an official staring at an opposing player taunting a UD player and when the UD player shoves them away a flag flies and UD gets penalized.  You can't have 2 sets of rules.  That is disturbing that the league office is doing this.       

"Send a message with your helmets and shoulder pads" Don Birmingham 1981

[DriftlessDuhawk]

I was curious to see how the penalty yard numbers correlated to what was being discuss on here about perceptions around the league. From the stats on the NCAA website I was able to find number of penalties and penalty yards per game (I work very early mornings and often have nothing to do).

Central - 36 - 36.3 yds/g
BVU - 38 - 36.3 yds/g
Coe - 41 - 41.4 yds/g
Luther - 52 - 47 yds/g
Wartburg - 59 - 47 yds/g
Simpson - 51 - 51.2 yds/g
NWU - 63 - 60.4 yds/g
ud - 67 - 65.5 yds/g
Loras - 64 - 69.6 yds/g

My first takeaway from this was there must be something in the Dubuque water that causes penalties but I think that will require further investigation. Other than that I think it would be fair to say that ud gets penalized more than the other top teams in the league. Now I think it would be an interesting debate to see why that is the case. Obviously I have a very biased view on this *pulls my purple and gold shaded glasses over my eyes* so I would tell you that in my experience as a player and a fan that the team up the street from Loras was always seen as an undisciplined team, but I think that it would be more helpful to see these numbers over the past few years to see if this is a trend and then, if it is why is this the case?

[doolittledog]

I was curious to see how the penalty yard numbers correlated to what was being discuss on here about perceptions around the league. From the stats on the NCAA website I was able to find number of penalties and penalty yards per game (I work very early mornings and often have nothing to do).

Central - 36 - 36.3 yds/g
BVU - 38 - 36.3 yds/g
Coe - 41 - 41.4 yds/g
Luther - 52 - 47 yds/g
Wartburg - 59 - 47 yds/g
Simpson - 51 - 51.2 yds/g
NWU - 63 - 60.4 yds/g
ud - 67 - 65.5 yds/g
Loras - 64 - 69.6 yds/g

My first takeaway from this was there must be something in the Dubuque water that causes penalties but I think that will require further investigation. Other than that I think it would be fair to say that ud gets penalized more than the other top teams in the league. Now I think it would be an interesting debate to see why that is the case. Obviously I have a very biased view on this *pulls my purple and gold shaded glasses over my eyes* so I would tell you that in my experience as a player and a fan that the team up the street from Loras was always seen as an undisciplined team, but I think that it would be more helpful to see these numbers over the past few years to see if this is a trend and then, if it is why is this the case?

I would imagine every fan will have a different theory and would be able to jumble numbers around to "prove" their point. 

I have been convinced in the past UD was getting screwed by the refs.  Then I took a long look in the mirror and realized, these officials are getting paid damn near nothing and are doing it for the love of the game and don't need me yelling at them from the sidelines.  (that was after the 2019 Wartburg game that I did some soul searching).  I also realize as fans all of us will think at different times the refs are biased and not calling things fairly for their team. That is the nature of the game. 

I think fandom colors things so you see what you want to see.  Someone can point out something they saw a team do and how that is awful and a fan of that team can point out something they saw your team do that was exactly the same so therefor your team is the one that is awful.  Zweifel didn't shake hands...Willis stormed all the way out to the hash marks and grabbed an official on the shoulder...Helminiak spiked his headset into the ground while yelling at the officials.  Player X did this...Player Y did that.  It goes on and on. 

One thing I have been curious about in regards to penalties are if teams that are losing badly get a pass on calls.  A few times the last couple of seasons I have seen an o-line player tackle a d-line player while the ref is watching and no flag comes out.  My suspicion is "the game is out of reach, lets just get out of here".

I will agree UD can be an undisciplined team.  Something my son-in-law and I talk about right before kickoff of every game is you can count on 2 or 3 stupid plays from UD.  A late hit out of bounds, block in the back on a kickoff.  Things like that.  Those are things UD is guilty of, the refs spot that, and rightly throw the flag.  Frustrating to watch and it hasn't been cleaned up.  In that case you can say UD is an undisciplined team.   Where I get frustrated at times, is all...and I mean ALL teams, whether it is players or coaches get on the refs from time to time.  Too often, I feel that refs will throw unsportsmanlike penalties when a UD player tries to argue his case when compared to other teams.  But like has been noted on here, as fans we can see things through blue or purple, or orange tinted glasses.

[Schipper Strong]

I will add my 2 cents and even with inflation it might only be worth 1 cent. First with regards to officials being more concerned with crowd reaction over recent years, I hate to say it, but it might be valid. I don't want to start a political fight, but unacceptable behavior from years ago has become more acceptable.

Second, I noticed some unnecessary unsportsmanlike behavior this year when playing UD as well. I hate to pile on, but I did notice it on a few plays. Something is happening or being allowed to happen there.

[Fannosaurus Rex]

I just couldn't let the Central Simpson rivalry game pass without reminding everyone of the time a Central economics major and a Simpson economics major waled into a bar. They grabbed a couple of beers and the Central guy said, "so, what do you think of the growth in the gross domestic product?" And the Simpson guy thought a second and said, "why do you have to bring my girlfriend's weight gain into this?"

[5 Words or Less]

Luther gymnasium improvements announced
https://luthernorse.com/news/2023/11/10/general-luther-college-receives-2-million-gift-from-birkestrand-family-for-regents-center-renovations.aspx[/img]

[Schipper Strong]

The one and only advantage to not making the playoffs is the opportunity to end the season on a win, which only one playoff team gets to do. It was nice to see a strong performance by Central yesterday at Simpson. Hoffman bounced back and had a good game passing and completed 59% with 4 TDS. Ketchum got some well deserved playing time and was quickly efficient limiting his playing time with very fast strikes for 4 touchdowns and a 69% completion rate. Then freshman Hobart finished things out. On two pass attempts he was 2 for 2 with one TD. Nice job men!

There is so much potential for next year. I am really excited for it. Well and Wartburg graduating 11 5th year seniors.  Work hard in the off season men, QB starter was picked for this year, but your hard work can win or retain the starter spot.

Now to be fair after my comment about UD having some questionable behavior that I felt was unsportsmanlike I need to add a caveat and update. Most of what a saw and questioned with UD were things I saw that did not get called. The unexpected something extra away from the official's line of vision. That said yesterday I think was a record number of unsportsmanlike calls made. Central and Simpson both had one that I think were unavoidable late hit out of bounds type calls. I think there were 3 additional calls against Simpson where I didn't catch what happened, but the officials were right on top of it. If I counted right that was 5 calls in one game. So Simpson has issues too. I am sure a losing season and rivalry game didn't help. In football and in life. Let's get back to being respectful and doing what is right.

[Schipper Strong]

Congratulations to Wartburg and Coe and best of luck to both of you in the playoffs. While I wish Central could still be playing too, I am really glad that Coe made the playoffs. If they have Wartburg rated anywhere close to right at #3 Coe deserves to be there. I read the belief that SJU should have been there, but I think the ARC teams have played MIAC teams very well a number of times in the playoffs. I would love to have seen Central and SJU go at it next Saturday in a non-playoff teams match up.

[DriftlessDuhawk]

Certainly getting two teams out of the conference is great for the league, but I have no idea how Coe was selected for an at-large bid...

[BLynn]

Certainly getting two teams out of the conference is great for the league, but I have no idea how Coe was selected for an at-large bid...

My guess is that Coe had the 'best loss' of any of the at-large schools.