FB: American Rivers Conference

[Old Dutch]

Just watching Bill Murray on Letterman, he's hilarious. 

we'll agree to disagree on WHY SJU is so successful, I guess my thought is that Coach G is a great recruiter and motivator, his past speaks for itself.  Everybody has a different practice and game preparation philosophy and if it works, go with it.  The future at Central is pretty bright based on Coach Mac's recent successes (not just the SJU game) and I would assume they'll continue to stick with what works for them.  I started ths because I think "Winning with no" is not necessaily a silver bullet to success, just the way one man approaches the game.

[OzJohnnie]

sfury and repete, I see you're looking at this thread as well.  You want dibs on the response?

[TC]

we'll agree to disagree on WHY SJU is so successful, I guess my thought is that Coach G is a great recruiter and motivator, his past speaks for itself.  Everybody has a different practice and game preparation philosophy and if it works, go with it.  The future at Central is pretty bright based on Coach Mac's recent successes (not just the SJU game) and I would assume they'll continue to stick with what works for them.  I started ths because I think "Winning with no" is not necessaily a silver bullet to success, just the way one man approaches the game.

Or we can agree to agree, if you'd like.  In my opinion, people far removed from the program are the ones that blow the "Winning with No's" so out of proportion.  No one is arguing that it is how all programs should operate.  No one is arguing that it is the only way to win football games.  No one is arguing that Central doesn't have a bright future, lead by a fabulous and talented coach who does what he thinks is best for his program. 

I can tell you for a fact that there are a lot of St. John's fans--many of them on this board, in fact--that don't agree with everything that John Gagliardi and his coaching staff do to try to win football games.  I think you're trying to start an argument where there is none to be had.

[Old Dutch]

Not trying to argue, just to figure out the roots of the SJU success.  Been watching your coach work for 2 years now and had some questions.  I better read the book.

I assume you'll be back next year, whether its the Dutch or Wartburg carrying the IIAC banner, we don't know, but we'll see you there.  BTW, we recognize we may not have seen the Johnnies best effort this year, so we'll expect another battle,  as we do this Saturday.

Go Dutch.  Beat Bethel.

[dbljay21]

So does this mean the "winning with no" philosophy has some negative impact on the program?  I don't mean to jump on a great discussion here, but if thats the reason you can' t play a contender in week one or two at what point do "wnning with no" teams run out of potential opponents?  Or do we just count on 3-7 teams (Marrietta and River Falls) always trying to earn an upset bid? 

Scheduling non-conference opponents can be tricky for some schools.  When I was at Aurora, we had a hard time finding a school within a reasonable travelling distance that wanted to play us.  We ended up with Valparaiso on our schedule every year (they are a I-AA non-scholarship program) and ended up playing Bethel.  The first year we played Bethel (2000 if I remember correctly) we got blown out pretty bad.  And I don't think it ever got any better.  And I know at Luther, Hefty wanted to play tough opponents for non-conference games for the measuring stick reason, which is why they got connected with St. Olaf.  We had ties to Martin Luther College for three years and they were a cupcake, but it made sense to play them.  I don't know how or why they got Waldorf on the schedule, but I would bet that they needed the game.  I would also bet a large amount of money that SJU has had some difficulty in finding non-conference opponents because of the success they have enjoyed.  The teams that are willing to schedule a perennially tough team (SJU, Bethel, St. Olaf, Wartburg, Central, Mt. Union, UW-W, etc.) are the teams looking for the measuring stick game...the "how do we stack up against the best" mentality.

[dbljay21]

Re:  an IIAC - MIAC Border War.  Its a great idea.  What would it take to make that happen?

Based on this year's finishes ... it would be:

Bethel vs. Central
St. John's vs. Wartburg
St. Olaf vs UD (selected on the basis of their victory of Coe)
Concordia-Moorhead vs Coe
Augsburg vs. Luther
Gustavus Adolphus vs. BV
St. Thomas vs. Simpson
Carelton vs. Loras
Hamline vs. Cornell

I really like this idea, but does it make sense when you risk missing the playoffs with 2 losses?  It is a good idea in theory, but when you have the possibility of 2 teams making the playoffs from each conference every year, it doesn't make sense for this to happen.  With two conferences trying to compete in the playoffs every year, it won't happen.  No matter how badly the fans want to see it.

[Retired Old Rat]

Number 1 on the "Winning with 'No'" List:

No single way to coach football

[Klompen]

Wow, it seems to me there are a lot of out-in-left-field posts out there.  Maybe I just don't get it though, since I never played football.  Why would any of the top teams in the MIAC, IIAC, or WIAC want to put themselves in a position to lose very early in the season when it could put them in the position of not being able to lose the rest of the season?  If #1 has to go against #1, that would mean both conferences were willing to give up a shot at two teams in the playoffs, because one more loss means you would likely stay home.  If there were to be a border battle, I don't see the number ones wanting it unless they were paired with a middle of the road team.  

I think TC is right, sometimes you might want to schedule really tough games to see how you measure up.  Central did that when they scheduled both Augustana and Bethel as non-conference competition.  Kudos to the coaches for being willing to take that risk, look where we are now.  But on a regular basis when you are at the top, I don't see it happening because of the playoff implications.

As to Gagliardi and the win with no policy.  It works for them and they like it, so they stick with it.  Those of us who don't understand need to just shake our heads and move on.  What do we really care how they practice anyway?  Also, just because this year's game was not tight does not mean that we shouldn't pay their storied program the respect it deserves.  After all, someone from the IIAC will likely see them again next year.  Now, if we Dutch fans look at all the talent we have graduating this year and figure we rile them up this year, no problem it will likely be WB facing them next year, and some of our heart or hearts have as hard a time supporting WB as the SJU fans do BU, well that's one thing.  But, if Central just reloads and goes back next year or even the year after, do you really think the Johnnies are going to forget that soon how the loss on Saturday felt and the way we, myself included, couldn't help but throw their comments back at them?  Paybacks are ...

[Klompen]

Number 1 on the "Winning with 'No'" List:

No single way to coach football

Exactly.  And if Schipper would have been still around at 81, we would have been backing him all the way, as long as they kept winning as the Johnnies have.  I don't know if backing off a bit on game day is new for Gagliardi or not, but at 81, I might be hoping other guys were handling the hard core stress of game day for the head coach.  No reason to let the man have a heart attack by getting too stressed out and it would be good to have well prepared coaches for the day the man finally retires or goes to the coaches hall of fame in the sky, I'm not sure which will come first!

[dutchfan1]

Have any of you ever read The Sweet Season? Honestly, the coaching philosophy makes a lot of sense. Gags simultaneously cuts down on injuries, lets players go with their natural strengths, and win while having fun on the field. He makes it work, and it is a brilliant way to coach. No hitting in practice, for example -- anyone who played in HS knows what if feels like to take a hit, so why risk it in practice? They spend their practice time running plays rather than working on calistenics. From a coaching perspective that doesn't seem like such a dumb idea, either.

Different isn't always bad....

[dbljay21]

Have any of you ever read The Sweet Season? Honestly, the coaching philosophy makes a lot of sense. Gags simultaneously cuts down on injuries, lets players go with their natural strengths, and win while having fun on the field. He makes it work, and it is a brilliant way to coach. No hitting in practice, for example -- anyone who played in HS knows what if feels like to take a hit, so why risk it in practice? They spend their practice time running plays rather than working on calistenics. From a coaching perspective that doesn't seem like such a dumb idea, either.

Different isn't always bad....

It must be a pretty good philosophy given all of the success SJU has had with Gagliardi at the helm.  As a coach, I don't agree with it because I think the only way you can get prepared to hit and take hits in football is to practice it.  Is it risky?  Sure.  But injuries can happen at any time.  Kudos to Gagliardi for his philosophy and having the courage to follow it even with people doubting its validity.  And kudos for making it work.  You cannot argue with success.

[DutchHawk]

Oh, and I note that the Dutch supporters are remarkably consistent in their call for the border war.  I remember the same call going out last year after they were stomped, just like this year when they did the stomping.  There's nothing like the euphoric blindness of recent success to stimulate wanton braggadocio.

3 point loss = no stomping
30 point loss = big time stomping

I dont feel like getting in to the pointless argument of Winning with No, its obviously worked, no way to refute that, and so has 50 different other ways of coaching. Lets leave it at that. All I was saying is that I didnt see Gagliardi do anything that would be observable by the everyday fan on Saturday. I never said he doesnt do anything so quit jumping all over that SJU fans. I was calling out the last 2 games Ive watched him coach, which happen to be the only 2 Ive ever seen him coach.

[D1HawkD3CUI]

Anyone else on the IIAC board sick of talking about St. Johns? Their season is over, we're still playing football and this week we have another tough test. Let's move on, the Johnnies have a good program and do weird things at practice but they still win, just not last week.

Will Bethel bring down the fans like SJ? Looking forward to another week of football, playing in December.

[DutchHawk]

Anyone else on the IIAC board sick of talking about St. Johns? Their season is over, we're still playing football and this week we have another tough test. Let's move on, the Johnnies have a good program and do weird things at practice but they still win, just not last week.

Will Bethel bring down the fans like SJ? Looking forward to another week of football, playing in December.

I agree...on to Bethel!

[dutchfan1]

Anyone else on the IIAC board sick of talking about St. Johns? Their season is over, we're still playing football and this week we have another tough test. Let's move on, the Johnnies have a good program and do weird things at practice but they still win, just not last week.

Will Bethel bring down the fans like SJ? Looking forward to another week of football, playing in December.

I agree...on to Bethel!

Here, here!

I doubt that Bethel will travel as well as SJU -- I don't think many schools do! -- I get the feeling that the fans the Royals bring will be the die hards that never miss a game.