Around the Nation board

[smedindy]

I think it's best to ignore that rant, as it's already polluted one thread beyond repair.

So K-Mack, where you off to this week???

[frank uible]

redswarm: NESCAC is just as illegitimate an organization as the NCAA. Both of them are a conspiracy arguably illegal and certainly designed to limit competition among the colleges, resulting in less choice for prospective and actual students. They both should be disbanded so that each college can act autonomously concerning its athletics offerings. For instance, if a college's students desire to have the college pay its athletes, why should a conspiracy among that college and other colleges prevent that possibility? The stakeholders of that college should be the sole determinants of that issue, and other colleges should stay out of it.

[redswarm81]

redswarm: NESCAC is just as illegitimate an organization as the NCAA. Both of them are a conspiracy arguably illegal and certainly designed to limit competition among the colleges, resulting in less choice for prospective and actual students. They both should be disbanded so that each college can act autonomously concerning its athletics offerings. For instance, if a college's students desire to have the college pay its athletes, why should a conspiracy among that college and other colleges prevent that possibility? The stakeholders of that college should be the sole determinants of that issue, and other colleges should stay out of it.

Are you contending that each of the NESCAC schools is not acting autonomously concerning its athletic offerings?  It looks to me as if the opposite is true, and that fact has your and several others' panties in a bunch.

Is NCAA DIII membership compulsory?  I don't understand your complaint.

[redswarm81]

I see more hypocrisy in permitting DIII (academics before athletics) athletes to participate in national tournaments than I see in prohibiting DIII (academics before athletics) athletes from participating in five week tournaments during academic crunch time.  But that's just me.

I think there are quite a few THOUSAND athletes (including many in the NESCAC) who will reject your attempts to ban ALL post-season competition in ALL sports.  Or are you still arguing the bizarre premise (from the board you killed in general d3 topics) that football is UNIQUELY evil?

I'm trying to ban ALL post-season competition in ALL sports?  I've never said or implied such a thing.  You're misinterpreting my posts, and since you're a brilliant college professor Dr. Chuck, I have to assume you're doing so intentionally.

I keep forgetting that in the 21st Century, college campuses are the place where free speech and the exchange of ideas are criminalized through speech codes and institutionalized political correctness.  Enjoy your stay in academia, Professor.

I've also never claimed that football is "UNIQUELY evil."  I've not discussed other sports much,  since this is D3Football.com.  I think you're again consciously misinterpreting.

Did you read Keith's column about his trip to the Trinity (CT) game? 

[frank uible]

redswarm: You bet I am. Each of the NESCAC colleges is conspiring openly with each of the others to limit the football opponents of the NESCAC colleges, to limit the number of their football games and practices, to limit the dates of their games and practices, to limit the squad size of their football teams and to refrain from post season play, all to the detriment of actual and potential students whose right to have each college attempt to compete (if the college independently chooses) for the students' attendance with the inducements that some or all of such limitations will not prevail at the college or colleges in question is thereby wholly or partly foreclosed. The same  statement applies to the NCAA, only with a different set of limitations. NESCAC and the NCAA are anti-competitive, anti-student and possibly illegal in their agreements and actions.

[redswarm81]

Each of the NESCAC colleges is conspiring openly with each of the others to limit the football opponents of the NESCAC colleges, to limit the number of their football games and practices, to limit the dates of their games and practices, to limit the squad size of their football teams and to refrain from post season play, all to the detriment of actual and potential students whose right to have each college attempt to compete (if the college independently chooses) for the students' attendance with the inducements that some or all of such limitations will not prevail at the college or colleges in question is thereby wholly or partly foreclosed. The same  statement applies to the NCAA, only with a different set of limitations. NESCAC and the NCAA are anti-competitive, anti-student and possibly illegal in their agreements and actions.

Wow Frank, I (sort of) follow your reasoning, but you're nearly suggesting that any agreement between two or more parties is necessarily an illegal conspiracy to foreclose other parties from the agreed-upon transaction.  I don't see any reason to interpret antitrust laws so expansively.

I conspire openly with Wegman's (nod to upstate NY, although we have Wegman's here in Fairfax County VA) to foreclose Safeway from my grocery shopping business.

You would deny colleges the right to limit their intercollegiate athletic competition?  If not the colleges themselves, then who has the right?  Is it an illegal conspiracy by all football teams at every level to schedule games only once a week?

I'm fascinated that you think NESCAC schools' limitation of their football programs is a detriment to the students.  If it is a detriment, could NESCAC schools enjoy such a solid reputation for well-rounded education as to score #s 1 and 2 on the US News & World Report list of Top Liberal Arts colleges?  I'm not suggesting that US News & World Distort is the ultimate authority on roundness of education, but their opinion and analysis do carry some weight, don't you think?

Shouldn't we include the NFL in the conspiracy, since they openly conspire with the NCAA in the operation of the NFL farm system?

[religion_major]

Frank,
Are you suggesting that we apply an law of the jungle mentality to college athletics?  As a college level athlete (baseball) I am mortified at the results of such a step.  Someone needs to make rules for all who decide to compete to abide by.  The rules establish grounds for compititon while giving at least some protection to the athlete. 

[Pat Coleman]

Hey, hey, hey ... let's not bring this discussion to yet another board. If you want to discuss NESCAC politics, go back to the NESCAC board.

[frank uible]

To protectors of the status quo: you might be enlightened if you would read my post carefully. Also it would help if you had some substantial knowledge of the antitrust laws. But I'm not going to walk you through it because doing so won't change your minds.

[K-Mack]

So K-Mack, where you off to this week???

I'm trying to talk Pat out of Hopkins-Thiel, but that looks like the winner amongst Wesley-Ferrum, a whole bunch of East games we already have covered and Bridgewater-W&J, which is my vote for competitive game withing driving distance this week, but may have as many as three broadcasts already originating from there. We might be more necessary elsewhere.

As far as the quote "small college football at its finest," I don't believe I ever wrote that.

My own personal opinion on the NESCAC is that the playoffs wouldn't kill one team a year's studies (plenty of other high-quality schools leave the door to the playoffs open) and it would probably give more than it takes away in terms of overall experience. As one e-mailer also noted this week, it's sort of hypocritical to allow your teams in other sports to play in the playoffs but not football ... which is a 5-week commitment in only the rarest of circumstances. Probably more like 1-3 for a NESCAC team most years, realistically. And we're talking about students ultra-equipped to multi-task.

And that said, I think a sharp and talented team is a sharp and talented team. I think Trinity could make an Occidental '04-like run in the East bracket.

But sometimes as a columnist, my job is to tell other people's stories and thoughts, not just my own.

Anyway, I have some e-mails I've been getting that I want to respond to here, I guess in hopes of starting some discussions ... I think discussing the NESCAC here (or whatever issue was raised in Around the Nation that week) is fine by me.

[K-Mack]

It seems to me a lot of people really don't understand the D3 playoffs, or the non-relationship between the top 25 and how teams are selected.

Not to slam on this guy by any means. His question is just one of many ... but the only one I've responded to so far:

> After defeating Christopher Newport, and only suffering two losses both of witch to teams that were ranked in the top 25 at one point or
> another, why does Methodist not get any play off consideration?
>
>
>
> xxxxxxxx xxxx
>
> MC Grad & Former Player

xxxxxxxx,
First, the top 25 is completely unrelated to the Division III playoff system. There are 32 spots, including 21 automatic bids set aside for champions of conferences with seven or more teams, and four more set aside for independents or champions of smaller conferences. That leaves just seven at-large bids for runners-up.

Since Ferrum and Methodist tied atop the USAC with a 6-1 record, and Ferrum won head-to-head, the Panthers got the automatic bid. Then, Methodist really wasn't anywhere near one of the top 7 remaining teams in the country, based on criteria like the Quality of Wins index (sort of a strength-of-schedule measurement), record against regional competition, etc.
Without the loss to Salisbury, the Monarchs probably would have been in the discussion, as the at-large bids are almost always snapped up by one-loss teams whose only loss was to the team which won their conference's automatic bid.

Hope that helps. If not, there is plenty more explanation on how the playoffs work on our site, under the Frequently Asked Questions link and on the message boards.

Keith McMillan
Keith@D3football.com

[redswarm81]

As far as the quote "small college football at its finest," I don't believe I ever wrote that.

Keith, you're a victim of your own talent for writing memorable prose:

24. New England Small College (NESCAC): The NESCAC and its presidents, who say they "remain committed to keeping a proper perspective on the role of sport in higher education" allow its football teams to play only the other eight members of the conference in a short season. No playoff participation is permitted in football, though the conference's teams in sports such as tennis, women's lacrosse, women's rowing, cross country and track won national championships last year. But, this is small-college football at its finest.[/i] The conference boasts seven rivalries of 100 meetings or more, two three-team title chases (the CBB between Bates, Bowdoin and Colby and the Little Three between Amherst, Wesleyan and Williams) and The Old Rocking Chair game between Hamilton and Middlebury. (italics added)

Poster's note:  The comely work colleague/Hamilton alumna (circa '90 or so) had never heard of the Old Rocking Chair game.  When was it established, and has anyone been around long enough to remember when it wasn't an Old Rocking Chair?

I think discussing the NESCAC here (or whatever issue was raised in Around the Nation that week) is fine by me.

That's a nice thought.

[K-Mack]

I probably should have said I don't believe I recently wrote that.

As much as I like it, Around the Nation can be like test-cramming. I fill my head with a bunch a relevant-at-the-time stuff, and then once it posts and a new week is played, I flush my brain and it's like I never knew any of that stuff. 

OK, maybe not that bad. But I don't remember writing about the Old Rocking Chair game any time this year ... perhaps you sourced where I wrote it back there, and on rare occasion stuff I never wrote gets edited into ATN ... usually for the better though

[frank uible]

K-Mack: I'll buy a bottle of that NESCAC snake oil!

[redswarm81]

I probably should have said I don't believe I recently wrote that.

OK, maybe not that bad. But I don't remember writing about the Old Rocking Chair game any time this year ... perhaps you sourced where I wrote it back there, and on rare occasion stuff I never wrote gets edited into ATN ... usually for the better though

Around the Nation, Nov. 7, 2002.

I don't understand why you're backpedaling from that opinion.  I think you were 100% right about the NESCAC three years ago.  Now, after witnessing NESCAC football firsthand, you've strongly hinted that Trinity belongs in the D3football.com top ten.  From here, your opinion looks more authoritative today, not less.