Around the Nation board

[d-train]

Three Stagg Bowl winners from the West besides UWW in the last 10-12 years.  Yeah, Frank, I think we can match your depth. 

[Frank Rossi]

Don't worry, Keith.  I read this board, too.  I still have the same problem here, though.  The second tier of my point has always been that the East teams kill off each other because they are forced to cross over for OOC games in a way that pits the top 12 against each other more than most regions.  Geography makes that much tougher in the West -- and thus makes year-to-year strength comparisons between the two regions virtually impossible.  I will give you this, though:  I think the West pockets its strength teams in a way that most closely resembles the East's issues.  However, the East's strength teams are confined to 4 conferences, with a 2, 3, 3, 4 breakdown.  With the crossovers, the odds of seeing more than one undefeated team anymore is very low.

Just my continued two cents...

[Ralph Turner]

Don't worry, Keith.  I read this board, too.  I still have the same problem here, though.  The second tier of my point has always been that the East teams kill off each other because they are forced to cross over for OOC games in a way that pits the top 12 against each other more than most regions.  Geography makes that much tougher in the West -- and thus makes year-to-year strength comparisons between the two regions virtually impossible.  I will give you this, though:  I think the West pockets its strength teams in a way that mossy closely resembles the East's issues.  However, the East's strength teams are confined to 4 conferences, with a 2, 3, 3, 4 breakdown.  With the crossovers, the odds of seeing more than one undefeated team anymore is very low.

Just my continued two cents...

But according to the indexes like Bornpowerindex and Lazindex, if the East had a Top5-6 team, truly worthy of hosting the Region and a true #1 seed, then we would see closer games when they played the UMU's of the world.

A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!

[Frank Rossi]

Don't worry, Keith.  I read this board, too.  I still have the same problem here, though.  The second tier of my point has always been that the East teams kill off each other because they are forced to cross over for OOC games in a way that pits the top 12 against each other more than most regions.  Geography makes that much tougher in the West -- and thus makes year-to-year strength comparisons between the two regions virtually impossible.  I will give you this, though:  I think the West pockets its strength teams in a way that mossy closely resembles the East's issues.  However, the East's strength teams are confined to 4 conferences, with a 2, 3, 3, 4 breakdown.  With the crossovers, the odds of seeing more than one undefeated team anymore is very low.

Just my continued two cents...

But according to the indexes like Bornpowerindex and Lazindex, if the East had a Top5-6 team, truly worthy of hosting the Region and a true #1 seed, then we would see closer games when they played the UMU's of the world.

A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!

Ralph - The East's results vs. UMU are as close as, if not better than, the average North results vs. UMU.  Someone pulled out those numbers in the ERPD PP earlier this month.

[usee]

I would say that the top  4 OAC teams and the top 4 CCIW teams in a given year can match up with all things east. And they very much kill each other every year. Consider that potentially, depending on Saturdays results,  4 teams from the CCIW will have wins against playoff teams this year (Carthage over Franklin, North Park over Benedictine, Wheaton over Albion, Elmhurst over Chicago). In addition, 6 of the 8 CCIW teams have been in the playoffs in the last 10 years. In the OAC 5 separate teams have made the field in the past  7 years. Thats at least 8 teams from just 2 conferences. If you add Wabash, Witt, Trine, and Franklin, the NOrth could find 11 teams that would match up favorably with any east lineup.

[Frank Rossi]

The SoS's of Franklin, Trine and Wittenberg don't generally support that statement.  That's like saying the NEFC has had X # of different participants -- just because they've had those participants doesn't tell me about the strength of those teams.  Apply the OOC schedule test to give those teams the strengths you claim.  That's what separates the men from the boys here.

[usee]

That's fine I'll take 11 teams from the CCIW and OAC and match them up. Plenty of cross regional games to figure out results. My point was there are 8-10 teams in 2 conferences that kill each other off in the North that can compete with most teams in the country every week so I don't agree with your "bunched up" argument

[Frank Rossi]

That's fine I'll take 11 teams from the CCIW and OAC and match them up. Plenty of cross regional games to figure out results. My point was there are 8-10 teams in 2 conferences that kill each other off in the North that can compete with most teams in the country every week so I don't agree with your "bunched up" argument

Then explain why we can almost always count on multiple undefeateds in the North?  Answer:  No Crossover.  You can't tell me otherwise.

[labart96]

Don't worry, Keith.  I read this board, too.  I still have the same problem here, though.  The second tier of my point has always been that the East teams kill off each other because they are forced to cross over for OOC games in a way that pits the top 12 against each other more than most regions.  Geography makes that much tougher in the West -- and thus makes year-to-year strength comparisons between the two regions virtually impossible.  I will give you this, though:  I think the West pockets its strength teams in a way that mossy closely resembles the East's issues.  However, the East's strength teams are confined to 4 conferences, with a 2, 3, 3, 4 breakdown.  With the crossovers, the odds of seeing more than one undefeated team anymore is very low.

Just my continued two cents...

But according to the indexes like Bornpowerindex and Lazindex, if the East had a Top5-6 team, truly worthy of hosting the Region and a true #1 seed, then we would see closer games when they played the UMU's of the world.

A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!

Well, you could be referring to DelVal this year Ralph...they could easily be a top six team (were real close to beating Wesley and otherwise demolished the MAC this season).....and I think they are posed for a run this post season as well (given the youth of the Raiders this season I'd venture DVC would only be a 7-10 pt underdog in that regional final, you know, if/when it happens in three weeks...) 

That said, the academic standards of many eastern teams and the associated admissions requirements (not to mention cost) will basically not allow any eastern team to approach a top 5 level anytime soon.  This was a piece I patiently waited for in the ATN on the same subject but it never came up.

[Frank Rossi]

Don't worry, Keith.  I read this board, too.  I still have the same problem here, though.  The second tier of my point has always been that the East teams kill off each other because they are forced to cross over for OOC games in a way that pits the top 12 against each other more than most regions.  Geography makes that much tougher in the West -- and thus makes year-to-year strength comparisons between the two regions virtually impossible.  I will give you this, though:  I think the West pockets its strength teams in a way that mossy closely resembles the East's issues.  However, the East's strength teams are confined to 4 conferences, with a 2, 3, 3, 4 breakdown.  With the crossovers, the odds of seeing more than one undefeated team anymore is very low.

Just my continued two cents...

But according to the indexes like Bornpowerindex and Lazindex, if the East had a Top5-6 team, truly worthy of hosting the Region and a true #1 seed, then we would see closer games when they played the UMU's of the world.

A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!

Well, you could be referring to DelVal Ralph...they could easily be a top six team.....and I think they are posed for a run this post season as well.  That said, the academic standards of many eastern teams and the associated admissions requirements (not to mention cost) will basically not allow any eastern team to approach a top 5 level anytime soon.  This was a piece I patiently waited for in the ATN on the same subject but it never came up.

We had a very interesting back and forth about that topic on "In the HuddLLe" last weekend -- I was surprised at his candor about it.

[usee]

That's fine I'll take 11 teams from the CCIW and OAC and match them up. Plenty of cross regional games to figure out results. My point was there are 8-10 teams in 2 conferences that kill each other off in the North that can compete with most teams in the country every week so I don't agree with your "bunched up" argument

Then explain why we can almost always count on multiple undefeateds in the North?  Answer:  No Crossover.  You can't tell me otherwise.

sure I can, and I already did but you don't want to consider it as you appear very entrenched. 2 conferences, 10 teams. Obviously at most 2 undefeateds and 11 different playoff teams in the last 10 yrs. The CCIW was 22-2 out of conference with games against multiple playoff teams. How is that not crossover? Use your SOS numbers on the top teams from the OAC and CCIW vs the top east teams. You appear to not be open to any othjer points on this and I wonder why?

I have read virtually every word of your disourse on the different boards and I remain unconvinced on several of your points. I agree that the sytem doesn't reward tough scheduling and something should be done (if possible) on that. Plenty of non-east examples of that issue. 

[Frank Rossi]

That's fine I'll take 11 teams from the CCIW and OAC and match them up. Plenty of cross regional games to figure out results. My point was there are 8-10 teams in 2 conferences that kill each other off in the North that can compete with most teams in the country every week so I don't agree with your "bunched up" argument

Then explain why we can almost always count on multiple undefeateds in the North?  Answer:  No Crossover.  You can't tell me otherwise.

sure I can, and I already did but you don't want to consider it as you appear very entrenched. 2 conferences, 10 teams. Obviously at most 2 undefeateds and 11 different playoff teams in the last 10 yrs. The CCIW was 22-2 out of conference with games against multiple playoff teams. How is that not crossover? Use your SOS numbers on the top teams from the OAC and CCIW vs the top east teams. You appear to not be open to any othjer points on this and I wonder why?

I have read virtually every word of your disourse on the different boards and I remain unconvinced on several of your points. I agree that the sytem doesn't reward tough scheduling and something should be done (if possible) on that. Plenty of non-east examples of that issue. 

Do me a favor and list me the playoff team-games you're discussing since I'm entrenched in prep work for this weekend.  I'll happilly concede that the CCIW is of that caliber if I can see some more hard proof on that point.  However, none of those teams have made it to the Stagg either.  In fact, even the Liberty League has had more Stagg appearances since 1989 than the CCIW.  I see a couple STRONG teams in there.  Not five perennial powers.  So help enlighten me here on the CCIW's supposed extreme strength.  Claiming five power teams is an interesting premise.

[labart96]

I would love to see that too.  The CCIW's best teams have these exciting OOC wins to their resume:

NCC - beat Olivet (0-9), Cornell of Iowa (0-9) and UW-EC (4-5)

Wheaton - beat Albion (5-4), UW-Platt (5-4), and Olivet

[Pat Coleman]

But according to the indexes like Bornpowerindex and Lazindex, if the East had a Top5-6 team, truly worthy of hosting the Region and a true #1 seed, then we would see closer games when they played the UMU's of the world.

A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!

Ralph - The East's results vs. UMU are as close as, if not better than, the average North results vs. UMU.  Someone pulled out those numbers in the ERPD PP earlier this month.

This speaks to his statement: "A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!"

[Frank Rossi]

But according to the indexes like Bornpowerindex and Lazindex, if the East had a Top5-6 team, truly worthy of hosting the Region and a true #1 seed, then we would see closer games when they played the UMU's of the world.

A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!

Ralph - The East's results vs. UMU are as close as, if not better than, the average North results vs. UMU.  Someone pulled out those numbers in the ERPD PP earlier this month.

This speaks to his statement: "A Top 5-6 team would dominate the region!"

OK, let's place DelVal at the top of the Region then.  Let's test this theory.  Oh, wait, what?  The Committee won't because the #8 team took the #3 team to the wire at the #3 team's home?  Oh, damn, I hate when that happens.  BAAAAAAD Aggies for scheduling a power team before the playoffs.  You became un-dominant with such a move!