Around the Nation board

[frank uible]

I do agree that this has gotten silly. Why should anyone care about it significantly?

[Ron Boerger]

I do agree that this has gotten silly. Why should anyone care about it significantly?

It's the typical "I'm right and I'm going to beat you over the head with my opinion until you give up" that is what passes for modern discussion.     

[frank uible]

NESCAC as a group should be happy on balance about what it is doing or it wouldn't be doing it, and others shouldn't give a good God damn what NESCAC does.

[Ralph Turner]

NESCAC as a group should be happy on balance about what it is doing or it wouldn't be doing it, and others shouldn't give a good God damn what NESCAC does.

The nice thing about the NESCAC'S disconnected treatment of their football championship is they have freed a Pool A bid for our use as another Pool C bid.   

The playoff is sealed at 32 bids.  We will not see the playoffs expanded to a 6th week.

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

NESCAC as a group should be happy on balance about what it is doing or it wouldn't be doing it, and others shouldn't give a good God damn what NESCAC does.

The nice thing about the NESCAC'S disconnected treatment of their football championship is they have freed a Pool A bid for our use as another Pool C bid.   

The playoff is sealed at 32 bids.  We will not see the playoffs expanded to a 6th week.

Best reason yet for why the NESCAC should not participate in the D3 Football Playoffs!!!

[redswarm81]

...

One of the reasons for the NESCAC's not participating in the D3football playoffs has been stated that it interferes with exam schedules.  

When one looks at the Championship dates for the Spring sports, the proverbial wheels come off the wagon.
Baseball, softball, track & field, golf, etc. compete right thru the exams.

So, in order to keep academics ahead of athletics and avoid hypocrisy--as everyone but me states so logically and so eloquently--NESCAC schools ought to participate in the Division III football tournament, that interferes with the exam schedule for a minimum of what, 60 students?
How can I not see the wisdom in such an inescapable conclusion?

Thanks for the response.  

No, I believe that they can compete in any format and championship that they wish.  However, the raison d'etre for which they conduct their football championship is literally "disconnected" from Division III.

They are hypocritical if they say that they do not wish to interfere with the academic schedule of their student athletes when they participate in post season tourneys that overlap final semseter/trimester exams.  I dare say that the NESCAC post-season participants in sports other than football are likely to be competing long after the football champion has been beaten in the first or second round of the football playoffs.  An example is the Bowdoin Men's Soccer team, which shall be competing in San Antonio next weekend.

I just seek intellectual consistency.

Isn't NESCAC's position on football intellectually consistent?  (Is there anyone in this discussion who has tried to limit the discussion to NESCAC's position on football?)

I disagree about the "disconnection" from Division III.  There are more things to Division III membership besides national tournaments.

Sorry if my word choice, grammar, and sentence structure cause anyone injury.

[Ralph Turner]

...

One of the reasons for the NESCAC's not participating in the D3football playoffs has been stated that it interferes with exam schedules.  

When one looks at the Championship dates for the Spring sports, the proverbial wheels come off the wagon.
Baseball, softball, track & field, golf, etc. compete right thru the exams.

So, in order to keep academics ahead of athletics and avoid hypocrisy--as everyone but me states so logically and so eloquently--NESCAC schools ought to participate in the Division III football tournament, that interferes with the exam schedule for a minimum of what, 60 students?
How can I not see the wisdom in such an inescapable conclusion?

Thanks for the response.  

No, I believe that they can compete in any format and championship that they wish.  However, the raison d'etre for which they conduct their football championship is literally "disconnected" from Division III.

They are hypocritical if they say that they do not wish to interfere with the academic schedule of their student athletes when they participate in post season tourneys that overlap final semseter/trimester exams.  I dare say that the NESCAC post-season participants in sports other than football are likely to be competing long after the football champion has been beaten in the first or second round of the football playoffs.  An example is the Bowdoin Men's Soccer team, which shall be competing in San Antonio next weekend.

I just seek intellectual consistency.

Isn't NESCAC's position on football intellectually consistent?  (Is there anyone in this discussion who has tried to limit the discussion to NESCAC's position on football?)

I disagree about the "disconnection" from Division III.  There are more things to Division III membership besides national tournaments.

Sorry if my word choice, grammar, and sentence structure cause anyone injury.

I concede on the point of intellectual consistency by the NESCAC on the subject of football.

They hate football.  They do not want to raise the profile of the sport any higher than it currently is.  American football is antithetical to the image that they want to show to their friends at the dinner parties and soirees.  Having Amherst-Williams featured on ESPN GameDay should purely be viewed as a public relations event by the folks in Institutional Advancement.

As for the use of the term "disconnected", 228 full members have declared for the Division III football championship.  They have placed their goals on competing for the NCAA Division III National Championship in accordance with the guidelines in the official Handbook.  Dual member Nebraska Wesleyan has "disconnected", if you will, and declared for the NAIA through the Great Plains Athletic Conference.

[redswarm81]

...

One of the reasons for the NESCAC's not participating in the D3football playoffs has been stated that it interferes with exam schedules.  

When one looks at the Championship dates for the Spring sports, the proverbial wheels come off the wagon.
Baseball, softball, track & field, golf, etc. compete right thru the exams.

So, in order to keep academics ahead of athletics and avoid hypocrisy--as everyone but me states so logically and so eloquently--NESCAC schools ought to participate in the Division III football tournament, that interferes with the exam schedule for a minimum of what, 60 students?
How can I not see the wisdom in such an inescapable conclusion?

Thanks for the response.  

No, I believe that they can compete in any format and championship that they wish.  However, the raison d'etre for which they conduct their football championship is literally "disconnected" from Division III.

They are hypocritical if they say that they do not wish to interfere with the academic schedule of their student athletes when they participate in post season tourneys that overlap final semseter/trimester exams.  I dare say that the NESCAC post-season participants in sports other than football are likely to be competing long after the football champion has been beaten in the first or second round of the football playoffs.  An example is the Bowdoin Men's Soccer team, which shall be competing in San Antonio next weekend.

I just seek intellectual consistency.

Isn't NESCAC's position on football intellectually consistent?  (Is there anyone in this discussion who has tried to limit the discussion to NESCAC's position on football?)

I disagree about the "disconnection" from Division III.  There are more things to Division III membership besides national tournaments.

Sorry if my word choice, grammar, and sentence structure cause anyone injury.

I concede on the point of intellectual consistency by the NESCAC on the subject of football.

They hate football.  They do not want to raise the profile of the sport any higher than it currently is.  American football is antithetical to the image that they want to show to their friends at the dinner parties and soirees.  Having Amherst-Williams featured on ESPN GameDay should purely be viewed as a public relations event by the folks in Institutional Advancement.

As for the use of the term "disconnected", 228 full members have declared for the Division III football championship.  They have placed their goals on competing for the NCAA Division III National Championship in accordance with the guidelines in the official Handbook.  Dual member Nebraska Wesleyan has "disconnected", if you will, and declared for the NAIA through the Great Plains Athletic Conference.

I wonder on how many Division III campuses the profile of football is higher on game day than it is on the Williams campus when Williams is playing Amherst.  Or on the Colby campus when Colby is hosting Bates.

I might have misunderstood your "disconnected" comment.  I thought you were describing NESCAC (they) as being "disconnected" from Division III.  Are you saying that the Division III national tournament is "disconnected" from Division III?  If so, as a philosophical construct, I would agree.

We see things differently, you and I.  The karma-taggers think that's a bad thing.

[redswarm81]

In my view (which is not that of an insider) NESCAC's posture on football is not about academics but is about football. Since its posture on other sports is not about football but is about the other sport, then its football and non-football postures are not inconsistent. All this does not mean I necessarily agree with NESCAC's posture on football - which, if one cares, I don't.

I have no insider info on NESCAC's reasoning, either.  But redswarm claims it is for academic reasons, and is therefore a virtue.  As Ralph rather pointedly observed, this is blatant nonsense since they participate in all other post-season tourneys, which also occur during final exam times.

This has gotten rather silly.  It all began when I said that IMO, NESCAC football was not a part of d3 (since they NEVER play anyone outside of NESCAC, they are NESCAC football, not d3 football).  I seriously doubt that ADs at Williams, Amherst, etc., care about my opinion, and d3 has not expelled them, so why the kerfluffle?

IMO, NESCAC is a valued member of d3 in all other sports, but does not exist in d3 football.

I don't remember claiming to have insider knowledge--or outsider knowledge, for that matter--of NESCAC's reasoning.  However, I am pretty sure I mentioned that NESCAC's unwillingness to participate in a 5 week national tournament (after an 8 week regular season) is consistent with a philosophy that assigns a higher priority to academics than to athletics.

[Mr. Ypsi]

redswarm,

a) Since Mount Union has been hosting the region east teams play in lately, I dare say MANY NESCAC teams play in tournaments that last longer than the NESCAC football champion would last.   (For the last five years it has been a 5-week tourney ONLY for UMU and UWW; for half the field it is a 1-week tourney.)

b) The reason (IMO) that NESCAC football is just that (not really d3 football) has little to do with skipping the tourney.  By playing NO games against any other d3 teams, they are a closed loop with no connection to d3 football.

c) But I thank them for giving d3 a 6th pool C bid!  Without that, almost certainly Wheaton would have been sitting at home two years ago instead of winning the North region!

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

In my view (which is not that of an insider) NESCAC's posture on football is not about academics but is about football. Since its posture on other sports is not about football but is about the other sport, then its football and non-football postures are not inconsistent. All this does not mean I necessarily agree with NESCAC's posture on football - which, if one cares, I don't.

I have no insider info on NESCAC's reasoning, either.  But redswarm claims it is for academic reasons, and is therefore a virtue.  As Ralph rather pointedly observed, this is blatant nonsense since they participate in all other post-season tourneys, which also occur during final exam times.

This has gotten rather silly.  It all began when I said that IMO, NESCAC football was not a part of d3 (since they NEVER play anyone outside of NESCAC, they are NESCAC football, not d3 football).  I seriously doubt that ADs at Williams, Amherst, etc., care about my opinion, and d3 has not expelled them, so why the kerfluffle?

IMO, NESCAC is a valued member of d3 in all other sports, but does not exist in d3 football.

I don't remember claiming to have insider knowledge--or outsider knowledge, for that matter--of NESCAC's reasoning.  However, I am pretty sure I mentioned that NESCAC's unwillingness to participate in a 5 week national tournament (after an 8 week regular season) is consistent with a philosophy that assigns a higher priority to academics than to athletics.

Again, then why don't they apply that same philosophy to the other NCAA sports they sponsor?  I just find that discussion confusing and certainly not-consistent.

Especially when football games are only played on Saturdays, and have the least amount of conflict with academics (as compared to baseball, soccer or basketball that regularly have competitions during the week and play MANY more games that would conflict with academic endeavors).

[jknezek]

I don't remember claiming to have insider knowledge--or outsider knowledge, for that matter--of NESCAC's reasoning.  However, I am pretty sure I mentioned that NESCAC's unwillingness to participate in a 5 week national tournament (after an 8 week regular season) is consistent with a philosophy that assigns a higher priority to academics than to athletics.

I suppose they don't really care about the men's soccer team's academics since Bowdoin's team is finishing up a 5 week tournament at the final 4 this weekend? Personally, I find NESCAC stance on football about as odd as I do the Ivy League's stance on the FCS playoffs. I also find it odd that the two leagues the rest of the country considers having the ultimate in elitist attitude take the same stance, in only this one sport, for some reason. That being said, I really don't care. If they don't want to play in the D3 tourney then their kids don't have to play. I'm perfectly happy to go on ignoring them if they so wish to be ignored for the playoffs.

[Ralph Turner]

redswarm,

a) Since Mount Union has been hosting the region east teams play in lately, I dare say MANY NESCAC teams play in tournaments that last longer than the NESCAC football champion would last.  (For the last five years it has been a 5-week tourney ONLY for UMU and UWW; for half the field it is a 1-week tourney.)

b) The reason (IMO) that NESCAC football is just that (not really d3 football) has little to do with skipping the tourney.  By playing NO games against any other d3 teams, they are a closed loop with no connection to d3 football.

c) But I thank them for giving d3 a 6th pool C bid!  Without that, almost certainly Wheaton would have been sitting at home two years ago instead of winning the North region!

Wow!  Those are awfully nice words about Wheaton from an IWU grad!    

[Ralph Turner]

I wonder on how many Division III campuses the profile of football is higher on game day than it is on the Williams campus when Williams is playing Amherst.  Or on the Colby campus when Colby is hosting Bates.

I might have misunderstood your "disconnected" comment.  I thought you were describing NESCAC (they) as being "disconnected" from Division III.  Are you saying that the Division III national tournament is "disconnected" from Division III?  If so, as a philosophical construct, I would agree.

We see things differently, you and I.  The karma-taggers think that's a bad thing.

No smiting from me....   

The sport that highlights the inconsistency best is baseball.  After playing 14 games in Arizona from March 22 to April 1st (on spring break I hope), Williams played 23 games in 35 days, from April 5th thru May 9th, the day of their last game of the NESCAC tournament.

Trinity CT played 10 games in Florida from Mar 14th thru Mar 21st, and then played another 21 games from March 24th thru the end of the regular season, May 3rd.  Most of those were on the weekend, so that cut down on missed class time.

However Trinity CT played in the ECSU Regional was May 13-17 and then the "D3 World Series" was in Wisconsin May 22-23.  Trinity Commencement was May 23rd, 2010.  They were playing in the NCAA Baseball postseason during dead week and finals.

Thanks for the discussion.   

[Mr. Ypsi]

redswarm,

a) Since Mount Union has been hosting the region east teams play in lately, I dare say MANY NESCAC teams play in tournaments that last longer than the NESCAC football champion would last.  (For the last five years it has been a 5-week tourney ONLY for UMU and UWW; for half the field it is a 1-week tourney.)

b) The reason (IMO) that NESCAC football is just that (not really d3 football) has little to do with skipping the tourney.  By playing NO games against any other d3 teams, they are a closed loop with no connection to d3 football.

c) But I thank them for giving d3 a 6th pool C bid!  Without that, almost certainly Wheaton would have been sitting at home two years ago instead of winning the North region!

Wow!  Those are awfully nice words about Wheaton from an IWU grad!    

MOST of us posters rally around conference rivals against the rest of the world!

Some can't quite bring themselves to do it (Johnnies, especially ), but I think my stance is more the norm.  I love beating the Wheaties, but if they are going against 'aliens', I'm for 'em 100%.