Around the Nation board

[Ralph Turner]

...
Wow!  Those are awfully nice words about Wheaton from an IWU grad!    

MOST of us posters rally around conference rivals against the rest of the world!

Some can't quite bring themselves to do it (Johnnies, especially ), but I think my stance is more the norm.  I love beating the Wheaties, but if they are going against 'aliens', I'm for 'em 100%.

Yeah, I know!  Go CRU!

[redswarm81]

In my view (which is not that of an insider) NESCAC's posture on football is not about academics but is about football. Since its posture on other sports is not about football but is about the other sport, then its football and non-football postures are not inconsistent. All this does not mean I necessarily agree with NESCAC's posture on football - which, if one cares, I don't.

I have no insider info on NESCAC's reasoning, either.  But redswarm claims it is for academic reasons, and is therefore a virtue.  As Ralph rather pointedly observed, this is blatant nonsense since they participate in all other post-season tourneys, which also occur during final exam times.

This has gotten rather silly.  It all began when I said that IMO, NESCAC football was not a part of d3 (since they NEVER play anyone outside of NESCAC, they are NESCAC football, not d3 football).  I seriously doubt that ADs at Williams, Amherst, etc., care about my opinion, and d3 has not expelled them, so why the kerfluffle?

IMO, NESCAC is a valued member of d3 in all other sports, but does not exist in d3 football.

I don't remember claiming to have insider knowledge--or outsider knowledge, for that matter--of NESCAC's reasoning.  However, I am pretty sure I mentioned that NESCAC's unwillingness to participate in a 5 week national tournament (after an 8 week regular season) is consistent with a philosophy that assigns a higher priority to academics than to athletics.

Again, then why don't they apply that same philosophy to the other NCAA sports they sponsor?  I just find that discussion confusing and certainly not-consistent.

Especially when football games are only played on Saturdays, and have the least amount of conflict with academics (as compared to baseball, soccer or basketball that regularly have competitions during the week and play MANY more games that would conflict with academic endeavors).

Has anyone, at anytime during this (football) discussion

• tried to keep the discussion focused on NESCAC football;
• suggested that NESCAC policy re national tournaments is intellectually consistent for football, but not for other sports; or
• conceded that NESCAC policy re national tournaments is intellectually consistent only for football?

So NESCAC is hypocritical in other sports besides football.  So what?  I'm sticking to football in this forum about football.  Why do people keep responding to my posts about NESCAC football with "but what about NESCAC triscuitball and NESCAC schnozzball and all those other balls?"  I would rather someone address the "high profile of football" issue from an earlier post, than discuss NESCAC hockeyball teams.

For some reason--which someone in this (football) forum doesn't care to analyze--NESCAC prefers intellectual inconsistency in all sports but football.  Some posters in this (football) forum seek intellectual consistency, have found intellectual consistency in NESCAC football, and don't particularly care to go looking for intellectual inconsistency.

[HScoach]

This whole topic is pretty easy for me.  I DON'T CARE WHAT THEY DO! 

Unless one of their pansy teams gets close to Mount's 55 game winning streak.........

[02 Warhawk]

do any NESCAC (football) athletes ever get selected for All-region/american honors? Or are they rarely considered?

[Pat Coleman]

They are definitely considered and often selected.

[hazzben]

They are definitely considered and often selected.

Why and How?

It's their own decision not to play any other D3 competition. Fine by me. But how do accurately evaluate their talent? You have nothing to base the strength of their teams or players on, aside from their ingrown conference.

I've never seen them play, so I can't speak to the product on the field. But without any non-con games or playoff material, isn't that a bit of a shot in the dark. Even their own coaches can't claim they really have an idea of what a DIII All-America caliber player is. They'd have great insight into what All-NESCAC is, but they literally never play against what we know to be elite talent.

We now know that the QB's for Trine and Franklin, even coming from traditionally weaker conferences, were exceptional athletes. We know Coppage is among the best. We know NCC's defense was as good as advertised. We know Wesley, if it can keep it's players out of jail (couldn't resist that one  ), has some great players. Why, because they've proved it on the field by going up against the best of the best in the playoffs, non-con games and the regular season. NESCAC has only the latter to evaluate talent, and again, we really don't know how good that competition is. So, do we guess, that a certain NESCAC player is better than the rest. You can't even really rely on statistical comparisons, because again, we don't know if its apples to apples. Greenville's got a great RB with great stats this year, but he plays against terrible D's week in and week out. We know this, and so we'd be hesitant to say he's better than Coppage, or even Flannery.

I wonder on how many Division III campuses the profile of football is higher on game day than it is on the Williams campus when Williams is playing Amherst.  Or on the Colby campus when Colby is hosting Bates.

You'll just have to keep wondering...because no team in your conference has ever experienced the profile of football at a non-NESCAC school!

Go check out Wabash - Wittenberg; North Central - Wheaton; Carleton - St. Olaf; St. Johns - St. Thomas...the list goes on and on.

And what about the rest of your games? Or is it only 1 Saturday a year that the school gets really interested and involved.

7 Conferences had better attendance than the NESCAC last year. 16 teams had better attendance than Trinity, 18 had better than Amherst. How many of Amherst's 13,000 total fans for the year came from one game against Williams??

[frank uible]

Calm down; it's only DIII, not WWIII.

[hazzben]

Calm down; it's only DIII, not WWIII.

Who's worked up?

I just think it's an interesting topic. Isn't that what these boards are for?

[redswarm81]

I wonder on how many Division III campuses the profile of football is higher on game day than it is on the Williams campus when Williams is playing Amherst.  Or on the Colby campus when Colby is hosting Bates.

You'll just have to keep wondering...because no team in your conference has ever experienced the profile of football at a non-NESCAC school!

Go check out Wabash - Wittenberg; North Central - Wheaton; Carleton - St. Olaf; St. Johns - St. Thomas...the list goes on and on.

And what about the rest of your games? Or is it only 1 Saturday a year that the school gets really interested and involved.

7 Conferences had better attendance than the NESCAC last year. 16 teams had better attendance than Trinity, 18 had better than Amherst. How many of Amherst's 13,000 total fans for the year came from one game against Williams??

NESCAC isn't "my" conference.  It is however, the most intellectually consistent football conference when it comes to the Division III philosophy of placing academics ahead of athletics.  In football.

Where are you getting attendance statistics?  They sound interesting.  Does your source provide per-game attendance figures?  Given that NESCAC football teams play an 8 game schedule, those attendance figures might be more impressive on a per-game basis.  13,000 total attendance at four home games = 3,250/game, which I figure is pretty good, don't you?  Other Division III teams host 5 or even 6 regular season games, plus as many as four postseason games.

I'm not sure I understand your answer though.  On how many Division III campuses do you suppose the profile of football is higher on game day than it is on the Williams campus when Williams is playing Amherst?  Or on the Colby campus when Colby is hosting Bates?  I don't know the answer, but I know that football is pretty high profile on those campuses, especially on those game days.  I hear tell that Coast Guard football is pretty high profile on campus on game days.  I frankly don't remember if that was the case when I played against Coast Guard (back in the days of leather helmets ).

[roocru]

NESCAC isn't "my" conference.  It is however, the most intellectually consistent football conference when it comes to the Division III philosophy of placing academics ahead of athletics.  In football.

Redswarm81,

You have made your point!  We think it is inconsistent and disagree!!  None of us are changing our minds!!! Please let it go!!!!

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

I posted this on the NESCEA board, but thought it was appropriate to post it here also after the recent discussion:

Saw a great story on E:60 this morning about Middlebury and "Picking Up Butch".

What a super tradition and excellent representation of D3 athletics!!

[redswarm81]

NESCAC isn't "my" conference.  It is however, the most intellectually consistent football conference when it comes to the Division III philosophy of placing academics ahead of athletics.  In football.

Redswarm81,

You have made your point!  We think it is inconsistent and disagree!!  None of us are changing our minds!!! Please let it go!!!!

Who is "we?"  Ralph agreed with me regarding the intellectual consistency of NESCAC football, so he must not be part of your "we."

What is "it" that your "we" think is inconsistent?

Thanks for contributing.

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

NESCAC isn't "my" conference.  It is however, the most intellectually consistent football conference when it comes to the Division III philosophy of placing academics ahead of athletics.  In football.

Redswarm81,

You have made your point!  We think it is inconsistent and disagree!!  None of us are changing our minds!!! Please let it go!!!!

Who is "we?"  Ralph agreed with me regarding the intellectual consistency of NESCAC football, so he must not be part of your "we."

What is "it" that your "we" think is inconsistent?

Thanks for contributing.

Uh, how did Ralph agree with you???

No smiting from me....   

The sport that highlights the inconsistency best is baseball.  After playing 14 games in Arizona from March 22 to April 1st (on spring break I hope), Williams played 23 games in 35 days, from April 5th thru May 9th, the day of their last game of the NESCAC tournament.

Trinity CT played 10 games in Florida from Mar 14th thru Mar 21st, and then played another 21 games from March 24th thru the end of the regular season, May 3rd.  Most of those were on the weekend, so that cut down on missed class time.

However Trinity CT played in the ECSU Regional was May 13-17 and then the "D3 World Series" was in Wisconsin May 22-23.  Trinity Commencement was May 23rd, 2010.  They were playing in the NCAA Baseball postseason during dead week and finals.

Thanks for the discussion.   

[redswarm81]

NESCAC isn't "my" conference.  It is however, the most intellectually consistent football conference when it comes to the Division III philosophy of placing academics ahead of athletics.  In football.

Redswarm81,

You have made your point!  We think it is inconsistent and disagree!!  None of us are changing our minds!!! Please let it go!!!!

Who is "we?"  Ralph agreed with me regarding the intellectual consistency of NESCAC football, so he must not be part of your "we."

What is "it" that your "we" think is inconsistent?

Thanks for contributing.

Uh, how did Ralph agree with you???

Here's how:

Thanks for the response.  

I just seek intellectual consistency.

Isn't NESCAC's position on football intellectually consistent?  (Is there anyone in this discussion who has tried to limit the discussion to NESCAC's position on football?)

I concede on the point of intellectual consistency by the NESCAC on the subject of football.

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

Touche Pussycat!