Around the Nation board

[K-Mack]

Great ATN.

For the teams at the top of the pecking order, I like the non-region game approach.  UWW can fill out its schedule with a D-III opponent for whom a loss might not be devastating.

I think that the "non-region" benefit to Buff State was that the coach could show his program where they stood, but a loss would not be "primary criteria"

I may be mis-informed on the mindset of the selection committees, but a good outcome in the secondary criteria surely carries weight when "primary" criteria get fuzzy.

Buff State can make the case for being a solid Pool C, if they don't win the E8.  (Is UWW still as good as we imagine?)

That is a legitmate question.  Yesterday's game showed that the UWW defense is going to have to carry this team for a while if UWW is ultimately going to be the team we imagined.

emma, I think I said that in the podcast, so I'm glad to hear someone closer to the program say it as well.

Ralph and rocru, it surprises me, sometimes the ATNs that I think are the weakest get more feedback than some I thought were pretty good.

Ralph, good distinction on out-of-region-but-in-D-III games. I should have mentioned.

[hazzben]

Keith,

I really liked your take on the scheduling issue in the Around The Nation column.  That question has been tossed around in high schools and all of the college divisions for a long time.  I think it primarily comes down to first, the difficulty a team faces in filling its schedule and secondly what the head coach thinks is best for his team.  Sometimes the coach gets it right and sometimes not!

In addition, while you are absolutely correct that Austin College has not made the Division III playoffs, I think it is worth noting that they were co-champions in the NAIA in 1981.  The game ended in a tie and both coaches had agreed prior to the contest that in the event of a tie they would call themselves Co-Champs.

A Platteville fan also e-mailed to mention an NAIA title.

I only have access to the D-III record book, which dates from 1973, but with different schools coming over at different times -- St. John's won the 1976 NAIA title, some PAC schools and the NWC was all NAIA in the 90s -- there is a part of history that's sort of vanished, from my perspective, but not from those of you who know it from being at the school.

Randolph-Macon, for instance, celebrates its 1969 undefeated Knute Rockne (Stagg precursor) Bowl team, so if you played there, you know those guys, but nobody else ever refers to that one championship R-MC won way back.

Was that a regional or national championship in 1969? Wasn't there a point early on when DIII was in its infancy that they had 2 regional champions, but no national. For like two years or something? Maybe I'm dreaming this up, but I thought I'd read that somewhere.

And there are several teams with great history in their NAIA days. Concordia-Moorehead has 3 NAIA national titles. I know UW-Lax has at least one, if not two in NAIA. Linfield and PLU each have multiple ones as well. There's a lot of 'forgotten' history both prior to 1973 and for teams who joined DIII post-'73. This is no doubt just the tip of the iceberg.

[02 Warhawk]

I've always been fascinated with the enrollment size discussion in DIII football. And whether it equates to on-field success. I was glad it was brought up in this week's ATN. One section I wanted to weigh in on was:

Michigan, Pennsylvania and Virginia are loaded with top-level D-I FBS and FCS programs, plus a D-II presence. That's a whole lot more competition for players than in Wisconsin, where there's UW-Madison, out-of-state schools and the WIAC.

It's no secret that the WIAC has a HUGE recruiting advantage given the lack of DI & DII football programs in this state. However, people tend to forget that the WIAC isn't the only DIII conference that has football programs in Wisconsin. In fact, there's three others: NAC, MWC, and the CCIW. I realize those other conferences may not be on the same competitive scale as the WIAC, specifically football. There are other options outside the WIAC and UW-Madison when it comes to college football in Wisconsin.

Interesting stuff, I'm glad it was brought up. It always seems to be a hot topic in d3boards. Also, if the NCAA does what "T Jordan" suggests, which is separate private and public schools into a DIII and DIV, would that really be a smart idea??? If that would happen, would Mount Union lose a game? EVER? In my opinion, that wouldn't solve anything. If it wasn't for public scools in DIII, Mount Union would be undefeated since 2005!!!

[Pat Coleman]

There are other conferences with a Wisconsin presence but it's fair to say that in the past decade, the WIAC has separated itself even further than before from anyone else in Wisconsin.

[hazzben]

Also, if the NCAA does what "T Jordan" suggests, which is separate private and public schools into a DIII and DIV, would that really be a smart idea??? If that would happen, would Mount Union lose a game? EVER? In my opinion, that wouldn't solve anything. If it wasn't for public scools in DIII, Mount Union would be undefeated since 2005!!!

Let's just call 'T Jordan's' suggestion what it was...stupid.

I hate this whole idea of DIII and DIV. Who wants to have the latter designation? And I wouldn't want to dilute the competition in pursuit of a title. I want it to be as competitive as possible, because then should your team win, you know you've gone toe to toe with the best, in the largest division of NCAA football.

[02 Warhawk]

There are other conferences with a Wisconsin presence but it's fair to say that in the past decade, the WIAC has separated itself even further than before from anyone else in Wisconsin.

Agreed...but there are other football options in Wisconsin. However, I didn't say they were great options 

[Pat Coleman]

I think what most people who complain about state schools in Division III don't realize is that state schools actually make up a quarter of the division. This also stems from the some states that hold separate private and public championships (and the many more that used to). Dividing NCAA schools simply does not equate to dividing high schools.

[smedindy]

If they follow the rules and philosophies of D-3, they're D-3. Period. Paragraph.

[K-Mack]

If they follow the rules and philosophies of D-3, they're D-3. Period. Paragraph.

Yes. But that would have made a very short item for the column!

Another thing I did not mention is that the D-II Northern Sun schools in Minnesota and the scholarship Dakota/Illinois schools surely recruit Wisconsin a little bit ... and Michigan.

Yes, from 69-72, there were two small-school bowls, Knute Rockne and the Stagg Bowl. There was no national championship.

[HScoach]

Michigan, Pennsylvania and Virginia are loaded with top-level D-I FBS and FCS programs, plus a D-II presence. That's a whole lot more competition for players than in Wisconsin, where there's UW-Madison, out-of-state schools and the WIAC.

I was surprised Ohio wasn't listed here too as a state with serious competition from higher level schools. 

DI-FBS
1.  Ohio State University
2.  Akron
3.  Bowling Green
4.  Kent State
5.  Miami
6.  Ohio U.
7.  Toledo
8.  Cincinnatti

DI-FCS
9.  Dayton (non-scholarship)
10.  Youngstown State

DII
11.  Ashland
12.  Findlay
13.  Tiffin
14.  Central State U.
15.  Lake Erie College
16.  Urbana
17.  Ohio Dominican
18.  Cedarville
19.  Notre Dame College
20.  Ursuline
21.  Malone
22.  Walsh



Then adding in a bunch of D3 schools there is by my quick count 43 football playing colleges in Ohio:
23.  Hiram
24.  John Carroll
25.  Kenyon
26.  Marietta
27.  Mt. St. Joseph
28.  Mount Union
29.  Muskingham
30.  Oberlin
31.  Ohio Northern
32.  Ohio Wesleyan
33.  Otterbein
34.  Wilmington
35.  Wittenberg
36.  Wooster
37.  Baldwin Wallace
38.  Bluffton
39.  Capital
40.  Case Westeren
41.  Defiance
42.  Dennison
43.  Heidelberg

NAIA
none

[K-Mack]

Michigan, Pennsylvania and Virginia are loaded with top-level D-I FBS and FCS programs, plus a D-II presence. That's a whole lot more competition for players than in Wisconsin, where there's UW-Madison, out-of-state schools and the WIAC.

I was surprised Ohio wasn't listed here too as a state with serious competition from higher level schools. 

DI-FBS
1.  Ohio State University
2.  Akron
3.  Bowling Green
4.  Kent State
5.  Miami
6.  Ohio U.
7.  Toledo
8.  Cincinnatti

DI-FCS
9.  Dayton (non-scholarship)
10.  Youngstown State

DII
11.  Ashland
12.  Findlay
13.  Tiffin
14.  Central State U.
15.  Lake Erie College
16.  Urbana
17.  Ohio Dominican
18.  Cedarville
19.  Notre Dame College
20.  Ursuline
21.  Malone
22.  Walsh



Then adding in a bunch of D3 schools there is by my quick count 43 football playing colleges in Ohio:
23.  Hiram
24.  John Carroll
25.  Kenyon
26.  Marietta
27.  Mt. St. Joseph
28.  Mount Union
29.  Muskingham
30.  Oberlin
31.  Ohio Northern
32.  Ohio Wesleyan
33.  Otterbein
34.  Wilmington
35.  Wittenberg
36.  Wooster
37.  Baldwin Wallace
38.  Bluffton
39.  Capital
40.  Case Westeren
41.  Defiance
42.  Dennison
43.  Heidelberg

NAIA
none

Very valid point.

Hadn't realized there was that much D-II in Ohio. Weren't some of those schools (Malone or Walsh) NAIA at one point?

I remember a coach being concerned about Lake Erie starting football. But I also remember Chuck Moore picking Mount over Kent and Akron ... so I think sometimes tradition outweighs the dangling of a partial or a full scholarship.

We often glaze over it by saying Ohio is a football state, but I should be mentioning it alongside Pennsylvania when I make this point.

[hazzben]

If they follow the rules and philosophies of D-3, they're D-3. Period. Paragraph.

Yes. But that would have made a very short item for the column!

Another thing I did not mention is that the D-II Northern Sun schools in Minnesota and the scholarship Dakota/Illinois schools surely recruit Wisconsin a little bit ... and Michigan.

Yes, from 69-72, there were two small-school bowls, Knute Rockne and the Stagg Bowl. There was no national championship.

Places like MN, IA and WI are not recruiting hotbeds. They produce a limited number of HS football players that can legitimately play college ball. States like Illinois, Ohio and Michigan simply produce a far greater number of legit college football talent. It's really just a population thing. Then you factor in the number of colleges (especially FBS, FCS and DII) and you get a sense of what kind of talent the population can support.

Population Numbers
IL: 12.9 mil
OH: 11.5 mil
MI: 9.8 mil

WI: 5.7 mil
MN: 5.3 Mil

IA: 3 mil

SD: .8 mil
ND: .7 mil

States like IL, OH and MI have multiple FBS, FCS or DII schools. They've also got 2-4 times as many people as WI, MN and IA. There's plenty of talent to go around.

Wisconsin has a slightly larger population than MN and only 1 FBS, FCS or DII football playing school. Lower population, but fewer schools competing for the resources. And as others have noted, Whitewater has a great location to Madison, Milwaukee and Chicago (so they can even dip into the IL talent pool). 02 Warhawk is right, it's either DI or DIII.

MN has 1 FBS and multiple DII's. IA has 2 FBS, 2 FCS (Drake is a weird one in that they don't offer scholarship) and several DII's.

Another factor that I think gets overlooked with MN and IA is that they are bordered by two states, South Dakota and North Dakota, with tiny populations and 2 FCS schools a piece, plus a smattering of DII's. These boarder states have to raid talent from MN and IA to fill their rosters due to their lack of instate talent/population.

Case in point, NDSU (Defending FCS National Champs) has 33 MN kids on their roster to 20 ND or 14 WI kids. SDSU has 17 MN kids and 15 IA kids to 5 Wis & 22 from SD.

Personally, I think the population to FBS/FCS/DII ratio is a much more significant factor than any of the others listed.

But bottom line, a school still has to recruit and ultimately coach up and develop the talent. You can have all the population ratio advantages, but junk coaching will kill you. Or you can have the disadvantages and close the gap through very good coaching. What's lethal is when you've got situations like UWW and historically UWL, who've taken advantage of both.

My 2¢

[hazzben]

^^

Finally, here are the numbers of MN and WI recruits at DII, FCS, FBS schools in the area:

Duluth: 44 WI, 46 MN
Winona: 29 WI, 33 MN
Mankato: 29 WI, 26 MN
Southwest: 12 WI, 52 MN
Concordia: 19 WI, 34 MN
Augustana: 1 WI, 39 MN
Sioux Falls: 4 WI, 14 MN
Northern St: 3 WI; 18 MN
Bemidji: 21 WI, 51 MN
St. Cloud: 2 WI, 17 MN
Crookston: 6 WI, 25 MN
Morehead: 2 WI, 43 MN
Total: 172 WI v. 398 MN

NDSU: 14 WI, 33 MN
SDSU: 5 WI, 17 MN
UND: 13 WI, 29 MN
USD: 3 WI, 5 MN
UNI: 5 WI, 17 MN
Total: 40 WI v. 101 MN

So yes, Northern Sun and NoDak/SoDak FCS schools do recruit some Wisconsin athletes. But they far and away recruit more MN athletes. Which given proximity and population factors just makes sense.

Given the population numbers above, I think this is pretty telling information for explaining the quality of teams and depth in the WIAC. That, and schools having a 100 man roster limit means top to bottom more teams get access to the good players.

UST and SJU probably total close to 350 players between the two of them. I think Concordia tends to have similar numbers as well.

[K-Mack]

Two cents? That was like 25 cents.

Reposting from the ASC board because the folks who are die-hard enough to surf over to the ATN board like to discuss such things:

Good job getting that for us five hours early!

No doubt. Breaking news is one of the things that's hard for us to do a lot of since all the writers and staffers have other jobs or business. It usually takes connections, time and work to break stuff. Good one here.

I see I'm not the first to suggest it, and unless I'm forgetting what Trinity and Austin's plans are, seems like affiliate football membership with the ASC is automatic if they want it and the ASC wants to keep its AQ. The two schools regain playoff AQ access, and conference awards, etc. and the ASC gets an eighth school to protect from another defector costing the AQ. The ASC has enough core members that adding affilates for football only would mean the ASC wouldn't have to lose its bid and wait two years to gain it back (hope I'm wording that correctly).

Only roadblock I see to that is if the schools don't want it. Austin left the ASC once already, but we'll see if they would rather be in a football conference and swallow their pride, or try to get eight random games a year. Trinity I'm guessing would welcome it since it scheduled UMHB, TLU and HPU this year ... fear of associating with not-like institutions or competitive disadvantages wouldn't seem to factor in. Games against teams in Texas make sense. Trinity and Austin would actually probably have some non-con dates open up if they went ASC.

100% speculation on my part. Makes too much sense.

If this were D-I, Wesley would join the ASC as an affiliate member for football. Geography, schmeography.

[hazzben]

Two cents? That was like 25 cents.
would join the ASC as an affiliate member for football. Geography, schmeography.

Guess I was feeling generous