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[USee]

Wheaton lost to Elmhurst onthe road by one play, NCC beat Elmhurst at home by 34.  Wheaton totally dominated NCC on the road.  Wheaton is the only team here with a road win vs the others.  That's a big differentiator in my mind.

No offense, but you still lost to Elmhurst, a team NC dominated. NC also decimated IWU, a team you beat by 5.  A loss is a loss, and NC and Wheaton both have two. If Elmhurst and NC win, Wheaton might not make it.

You're too aware of the CCIW landscape to put this out there.  The Elmhurst stuff, fine.  But don't compare the Wheaton and NCC results against IWU.  They didn't play the same team. 

It should all matter not in the end.  I wouldn't trust IWU to beat a dirty rug at the moment, so NCC should qualify automatically.  Elmhurst will be an easy Pool C selection.  Wheaton...well, we'll have to see where Wheaton lands in the regional rankings.  If Wheaton gets to the table, I think they've got a good shot to get in.

I think you are right on here Wally. This is the most likely scenario. The fly in the ointment is the fact that Elmhurst's defense is worse than a dirty rug.

[K-Mack]

Wheaton lost to Elmhurst onthe road by one play, NCC beat Elmhurst at home by 34.  Wheaton totally dominated NCC on the road. Wheaton is the only team here with a road win vs the others.  That's a big differentiator in my mind.

I'm not a big "value of a win is more/less depending on where it is played" guy. I'd be more willing to buy Wheaton's win came later in the season, and its loss was slight while its win was fairly dominating.

[K-Mack]

Wheaton lost to Elmhurst onthe road by one play, NCC beat Elmhurst at home by 34.  Wheaton totally dominated NCC on the road.  Wheaton is the only team here with a road win vs the others.  That's a big differentiator in my mind.

No offense, but you still lost to Elmhurst, a team NC dominated. NC also decimated IWU, a team you beat by 5.  A loss is a loss, and NC and Wheaton both have two. If Elmhurst and NC win, Wheaton might not make it.

You're too aware of the CCIW landscape to put this out there.  The Elmhurst stuff, fine.  But don't compare the Wheaton and NCC results against IWU.  They didn't play the same team. 

It should all matter not in the end.  I wouldn't trust IWU to beat a dirty rug at the moment, so NCC should qualify automatically.  Elmhurst will be an easy Pool C selection.  Wheaton...well, we'll have to see where Wheaton lands in the regional rankings.  If Wheaton gets to the table, I think they've got a good shot to get in.

I think you are right on here Wally. This is the most likely scenario. The fly in the ointment is the fact that Elmhurst's defense is worse than a dirty rug.

I think Wheaton needs the AQ. Their chances of getting to the table, IMHO, are slim, unless some results break right on Saturday. We do have them ahead of the NCAC loser-outer though.

Also way to ruin this thread with an argument that could've been had on the CCIW board.

[USee]

K-Mack,

Have you checked the CCIW board? I am guessing not. This argument is like a virus on the boards. It's been had there and here and who knows where next. I have a hard time seeing how it's "ruining" this thread. It may be ruining my credibility, but not the thread.

Also, I can't imagine why you don't think a road win is not more important than a home win. The facts are that teams win at home more often than on the road. It's not an opinion, it's in the data. You don't have to believe it, but it doesn't make it more or less true. Now, if you are saying you personally don't value the data, that's ok too. Unfortunately, this is also an argument we have had on the CCIW board and elsewhere. Sorry.......

[Ralph Turner]

K-Mack,

Have you checked the CCIW board? I am guessing not. This argument is like a virus on the boards. It's been had there and here and who knows where next. I have a hard time seeing how it's "ruining" this thread. It may be ruining my credibility, but not the thread.

Also, I can't imagine why you don't think a road win is not more important than a home win. The facts are that teams win at home more often than on the road. It's not an opinion, it's in the data. You don't have to believe it, but it doesn't make it more or less true. Now, if you are saying you personally don't value the data, that's ok too. Unfortunately, this is also an argument we have had on the CCIW board and elsewhere. Sorry.......

Road win...Home win...
All of these discussions must be considered in the context of how the committee will value the data versus the criteria.

[USee]

K-Mack,

Have you checked the CCIW board? I am guessing not. This argument is like a virus on the boards. It's been had there and here and who knows where next. I have a hard time seeing how it's "ruining" this thread. It may be ruining my credibility, but not the thread.

Also, I can't imagine why you don't think a road win is not more important than a home win. The facts are that teams win at home more often than on the road. It's not an opinion, it's in the data. You don't have to believe it, but it doesn't make it more or less true. Now, if you are saying you personally don't value the data, that's ok too. Unfortunately, this is also an argument we have had on the CCIW board and elsewhere. Sorry.......

Road win...Home win...
All of these discussions must be considered in the context of how the committee will value the data versus the criteria.

Agreed.....which was my original point on one of these boards (?). I mentioned that before the world of AQ, Pool B/C, published criteria, sos, and regional rankings the committee valued winning streaks (they rarely picked a team that lost in the last 2 weeks of the season) and home vs road records. I openly wondered if that could be a way to break the tie or filter the teams that we are currently seeing as so complex. For example, if you were comparing 2 loss teams and had the ability to eliminate teams that lost at the end of the season vs a team that lost early (e.g. Team XXX is on an 8 game win streak from their week 4 loss but Team YYYY lost in week 10, or Team XXX lost on the road to Team YYY while Team AAA lost at home to Team BBB). The specific example I used is the fact that Wheaton beat NCC on the road (when NCC was on a 20 game conference win streak) and lost @Elmhurst in a close game. I personally value road wins much more highly that home wins for teams. In the Wheaton v IWU rivalry in the CCIW, the home team has won every game the last 6 years and IWU has not won @ Wheaton since 1998.

The reality is that the current criteria may not allow for that but I think it's an important discussion. (enter K-Mack to scold USee for ruining his ATN thread with a Pool C discussion....)

[HScoach]

At the D3 level, I don't think home or away means much.   It's not like you're playing in front of 100,000 people and can't hear the play calls like bigtime D1.   

Sure, it's nice to be at home, but unless it's crazy long travel or playing in weather conditions different than at home, it doesn't mean much to me.

[smedindy]

I think it does matter in some aspects. Before this season Wabash hadn't lost a non-playoff game at home in a l-o-n-g time. Of course, usually there's 4,000 on one side of the stands and about 100 on the other.

[USee]

At the D3 level, I don't think home or away means much.   It's not like you're playing in front of 100,000 people and can't hear the play calls like bigtime D1.   

Sure, it's nice to be at home, but unless it's crazy long travel or playing in weather conditions different than at home, it doesn't mean much to me.

I think the data says otherwise. Home/away is not just crowds and weather, it's about routine and distractions. Home vs away is absolutely an important factor.

[hazzben]

At the D3 level, I don't think home or away means much.   It's not like you're playing in front of 100,000 people and can't hear the play calls like bigtime D1.   

Sure, it's nice to be at home, but unless it's crazy long travel or playing in weather conditions different than at home, it doesn't mean much to me.

I think the data says otherwise. Home/away is not just crowds and weather, it's about routine and distractions. Home vs away is absolutely an important factor.

Bingo. Crowd affect, not so much. I played in the 2003 Bethel, SJU game. Almost 14,000 on hand to see Gags go for 409. That's a strong anomaly for a D3 game, and I don't think the crowd affected much of anything.

But the routine piece can be big. No two road trips are alike, and since most away games for D3 schools are one day trips it can be a bit of a variable.

[HScoach]

^  Guess I'm just spoiled by following a team that's a little more machine-like.

[USee]

I agree that HSCoach has been spoiled. 

[roocru]

At the D3 level, I don't think home or away means much.   It's not like you're playing in front of 100,000 people and can't hear the play calls like bigtime D1.   

Sure, it's nice to be at home, but unless it's crazy long travel or playing in weather conditions different than at home, it doesn't mean much to me.

I think the data says otherwise. Home/away is not just crowds and weather, it's about routine and distractions. Home vs away is absolutely an important factor.

Bingo. Crowd affect, not so much. I played in the 2003 Bethel, SJU game. Almost 14,000 on hand to see Gags go for 409. That's a strong anomaly for a D3 game, and I don't think the crowd affected much of anything.

But the routine piece can be big. No two road trips are alike, and since most away games for D3 schools are one day trips it can be a bit of a variable.

I also believe you have to first have success on the road.  Primary example, since the 2004 successful all road trip to the Stagg Bowl the mindset of all UMHB teams after that has been different regarding being on the road.  I am not saying they have won all their road contests since then but I believe they do approach them with a different mindset.

[HScoach]

I think Mount plays better on the road in the regular season.   More focused, less distractions.

[NCF]

I think Mount plays better on the road in the regular season.   More focused, less distractions.

Makes sense