FB: American Southwest Conference

[Pat Coleman]

Now I going to need Pat and the Crew to put that mighty asterisk* on the website to show that those games didn't count...jk. I'm always for everyone playing by the rules, but sometimes the punishment has to fit the crime and this does not fit.

If the appeal by UMHB is unsuccessful, we will update our list of champions, but not before.

[DFWCrufan]

Well for me at least, off the chains boys, leave nothing behind but smoking scorched earth, every game, any game, play 100% to the very last second on the clock, and if it means scoring with 1 sec left, embrace it. If the NCAA wants to be over or heavy handed, so should the Cru play the game that way. Do not drop a knee under any circumstances, do not take a foot off any accelerator.
I could see a violation of this type with Coach taking the hit, which he did. I still cannot see any way a loaned car gave an on field advantage in any game and warranting a removal of a title.
And you know the NCAA is not going to entertain an APPEAL, they would look like foolish children. To me this is another case of Punish the mighty, win one for the little guy syndrome.

[hazzben]

This is dumb. It appears to me like he was trying to help a kid out way more than he was trying to game the system. Dumb mistake on his part, but not "take their Championship away" dumb/intentional.

Pat, any insight into how successful appeals like that this are?

[wally_wabash]

To me this is another case of Punish the mighty, win one for the little guy syndrome.

I think the penalty is silly, but this sentiment has literally never been the NCAA's modus operandi. 

[RFB]

Well for me at least, off the chains boys, leave nothing behind but smoking scorched earth, every game, any game, play 100% to the very last second on the clock, and if it means scoring with 1 sec left, embrace it. If the NCAA wants to be over or heavy handed, so should the Cru play the game that way. Do not drop a knee under any circumstances, do not take a foot off any accelerator.
I could see a violation of this type with Coach taking the hit, which he did. I still cannot see any way a loaned car gave an on field advantage in any game and warranting a removal of a title.
And you know the NCAA is not going to entertain an APPEAL, they would look like foolish children. To me this is another case of Punish the mighty, win one for the little guy syndrome.

The NCAA is on their death bed. They will be given last rites soon when the Power 5 conferences leave and form up their own organization. This heavy handed penalty for UMHB is well beyond the scope of acceptable punishment.

[Ron Boerger]

The NCAA is on their death bed. They will be given last rites soon when the Power 5 conferences leave and form up their own organization. This heavy handed penalty for UMHB is well beyond the scope of acceptable punishment.

And should this come to pass, we can all kiss goodbye to any sort of playoff system for the teams formerly known as Division III.   Ain't no way you'll talk the Power 5 into sharing any of the money they'll make in their do-it-ourselves system, and the (former) D3 schools themselves aren't going to self-fund anything resembling a 32-team bracket for football. 

[Wild Horse Rider]

That is really a shame.  Without really knowing the details it seems like the coach was trying to help a kid out who needed help.  Sure he might not have done it for any other student at the school but how many non-football players do the coaches interact with on a level where they would trust a college kid with borrowing a car.  If the NCAA is really concerned I also bet there are thousands of coaches out there who have given a kid a meal they weren't supposed to or given them a ride to the airport.  I know borrowing a car is somewhat of a step up from that but it was a 10 year old Subaru not a 2016 Lexus.  Back in the day I helped a few assistant coaches move in and out of apartments/homes while I was playing.  They would always pay me what they would pay anyone else to move their stuff but typically they would leave the actual exchange of money to a wife or girlfriend if they could.  I always thought that was funny as a 18-22 year old kid.  Now I understand they were just watching their backside in the event of stuff like this unfortunately.

[Ron Boerger]

From the fine folks at Dave Campbell's Texas Football:

https://twitter.com/Tepper/status/1182348900956540928

Greg Tepper
@Tepper

Hello, I'm the managing editor of Dave Campbell's Texas Football, and we will not recognize this ruling. UMHB is the 2016 national champion forever. Thank you.

[Pat Coleman]

This is dumb. It appears to me like he was trying to help a kid out way more than he was trying to game the system. Dumb mistake on his part, but not "take their Championship away" dumb/intentional.

Pat, any insight into how successful appeals like that this are?

Not really, sorry. There isn't a lot of traffic associated with the Division III committee on infractions so not sure about the track record.

I'll say this, though -- the committee had some strong precedents to draw on. I've added some of that info to our story, and also added a link in our story to the full NCAA report, as a downloadable PDF.

https://www.d3football.com/notables/2019/10/umhb-to-appeal-vacation-of-title

[TheChucker]

This is dumb. It appears to me like he was trying to help a kid out way more than he was trying to game the system. Dumb mistake on his part, but not "take their Championship away" dumb/intentional.

Pat, any insight into how successful appeals like that this are?

Not really, sorry. There isn't a lot of traffic associated with the Division III committee on infractions so not sure about the track record.

I'll say this, though -- the committee had some strong precedents to draw on. I've added some of that info to our story, and also added a link in our story to the full NCAA report, as a downloadable PDF.

https://www.d3football.com/notables/2019/10/umhb-to-appeal-vacation-of-title

Thanks for the link Pat. That historical Thomas More info is interesting. The NCAA forcing them to abandon the 2014 title seemed pretty ludicrous too given that situation. Very harsh. I'm curious how much the NCAA issues contributed to their to jump to NAIA.

So is this a mini trend?
Thomas More leaves D3 with some help from the NCAA (maybe).
St. Thomas gets nudged out the MIAC and maybe out of D3.
UMHB getting a little nudge too?

[jknezek]

This is dumb. It appears to me like he was trying to help a kid out way more than he was trying to game the system. Dumb mistake on his part, but not "take their Championship away" dumb/intentional.

Pat, any insight into how successful appeals like that this are?

Not really, sorry. There isn't a lot of traffic associated with the Division III committee on infractions so not sure about the track record.

I'll say this, though -- the committee had some strong precedents to draw on. I've added some of that info to our story, and also added a link in our story to the full NCAA report, as a downloadable PDF.

https://www.d3football.com/notables/2019/10/umhb-to-appeal-vacation-of-title

Thanks for the link Pat. That historical Thomas More info is interesting. The NCAA forcing them to abandon the 2014 title seemed pretty ludicrous too given that situation. Very harsh. I'm curious how much the NCAA issues contributed to their to jump to NAIA.

So is this a mini trend?
Thomas More leaves D3 with some help from the NCAA (maybe).
St. Thomas gets nudged out the MIAC and maybe out of D3.
UMHB getting a little nudge too?

TMC wasnt nudged out by the NCAA. They were unable to find a conference willing to take them. Partly geographic, partly other factors. I'm sure the infraction, among other things, were part of the PAC decision to... request... they leave.

[Pat Coleman]

Thomas More's indiscretion did lead directly to them leaving Division III, however. That led the PAC to request their departure and their departure led to them not being able to catch on anywhere else.

It's a pretty direct line, here, from the impermissible benefit to the loss of the title. The rules don't care how many games you won, and it goes as such.

Student-athlete receives impermissible benefit.
Student-athlete is ineligible until they go through the process and get cleared.
School must vacate any contests in which student-athlete participated.

The fact that the team won a lot of games is not part of the consideration.

[Etchglow]

Thomas More's indiscretion did lead directly to them leaving Division III, however. That led the PAC to request their departure and their departure led to them not being able to catch on anywhere else.

It's a pretty direct line, here, from the impermissible benefit to the loss of the title. The rules don't care how many games you won, and it goes as such.

Student-athlete receives impermissible benefit.
Student-athlete is ineligible until they go through the process and get cleared.
School must vacate any contests in which student-athlete participated.

The fact that the team won a lot of games is not part of the consideration.

So, just the games that said student athlete participated in right?

[Pat Coleman]

Correct.

[Ralph Turner]

This expresses my feelings, and I am not a UMHB fan.

Matthew 23:24.  "You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel."

Yes, there is precedent, but I look at:

1) the infractions that Penn State got for the 14 years that a sexual predator was on the coaching staff.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/penn-state-football-punished-by-ncaa-over-sandusky-scandal/2012/07/23/gJQA

2) the Alabama "Albert Means case" in 2002. Alabama should have gotten the death penalty.

Here is a link to refresh your memory.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/when-alabama-was-in-legitimate-danger-of-receiving-the-death-penalty/

3) Google NCAA Death Penalty and you can read a few top programs who have deserved what SMU got in 1988,  e.g., North Carolina Men's Basketball academic scandal, Kansas and Kentucky Men's basketball.

Here is a wikipedia summary of just a few "big-and-powerful" programs for whom the Death Penalty was discussed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_penalty_(NCAA)