FB: American Southwest Conference

Etchglow · June 24, 2023, 07:52:39 PM

It might be a hard sell to get Louisiana Christian (College) to come back to the ASC only two seasons after leaving it for NAIA. I was kind of hoping that the ASC would make a play for NAU after they started football but they ended up going NAIA as well...

Riley Zayas · June 24, 2023, 07:59:02 PM

NAIA fits into those school's models better than D3. Plus, I don't think LC liked the long trips to Abilene and Brownwood. NAIA has a lot of advantages to it, especially from a financial perspective. Yes, you're offering scholarships, but operating costs tend to be lower with fewer fees and such. NAIA programs generally spend 40% less than NCAA schools of similar size AND quality. And there's not as many restrictions as far as recruiting contact and contact with student-athletes.

Not trying to advocate for NAIA over D3, but it's probably a big reason why NAU opted to go NAIA as it seemed they were very much on the fence as to going the D3 route or the NAIA route.

Mavchamp · June 25, 2023, 01:25:00 PM

Starting to sound like moving to NAIA is our best option. I think the Sooner Conference would be fun....and the travel wouldn't be terrible for ETBU. But I'd just rather see the Tigers remain NCAA. But D2 simply isn't an option for us IMHO. Especially in the Lone Star Conference. There are schools in the LSC that are 7 and 8 times the size of ETBU. Most of them are at least THREE times bigger....and a couple of them are FIVE times bigger. The disparity would be less in the Great American Conference and would actually be much better in travel than the LSC...... but I just don't see D2 as a viable option right now.

No nearby conferences seem to be offering invitations...... going independent is completely unappealing.

NAIA and the Sooner Conference might be the answer.....at least temporarily. I honestly don't expect the SCAC to remain intact indefinitely in it's current form.

Just have to survive the storm.

Ron Boerger · June 26, 2023, 04:06:31 PM

DCTF's Cory Hogue reports former ASC Commissioner Amy Carlton is headed to the LSC, where she will be Assistant Commissioner: https://twitter.com/coryhoguesports/status/1673379651731836928

Interestingly the two conferences are co-located.

Etchglow · June 26, 2023, 06:04:39 PM

Quote from: Ron Boerger on June 26, 2023, 04:06:31 PM
DCTF's Cory Hogue reports former ASC Commissioner Amy Carlton is headed to the LSC, where she will be Assistant Commissioner: https://twitter.com/coryhoguesports/status/1673379651731836928

Interestingly the two conferences are co-located.

Congrats to her! Kind of interesting too.

jekelish · June 26, 2023, 09:08:17 PM

Quote from: Ron Boerger on June 26, 2023, 04:06:31 PM
DCTF's Cory Hogue reports former ASC Commissioner Amy Carlton is headed to the LSC, where she will be Assistant Commissioner: https://twitter.com/coryhoguesports/status/1673379651731836928

Interestingly the two conferences are co-located.

Co-located for now, but I've been told the ASC is looking for a new HQ. Congratulations to Amy, though. She's a lovely person, and I'm glad to see her land well. Especially given what a rough year it's been for her thus far.

Mavchamp · June 28, 2023, 07:18:18 PM

I still don't think D2 would be a smart decision for most of the Baptist 4..... and financially it may not even be an option.

But Looking at the choices..... it would either be the Lone Star Conference or the Great American Conference.

LSC is loaded with schools significantly bigger than any of the Baptist 4.

Then there is the travel issue...which wouldn't be as strenuous on UMHB, HSU, and HPU. With many of the schools located in the western and central parts of Texas. But from far North East Texas...... it would be brutal for ETBU. Then toss in New Mexico, Washington, and Oregon for football.

Texas Women's 12,465
Angelo State 10,447
West Texas A&M 10,169
Central Washington 10,145
A&M Kingsville 8,783
UT Permian 7,628
U of Ark - Fort Smith 6,713
Western Oregon 6,233
Midwestern 6,093
Cameron University 5,449
Dallas Baptist 5,500
St. Edwards 5.500
Eastern New Mexico 5,574
UT Tyler 5,326
St. Marys 4.500
A&M Intn 4,298
Western New Mexico Statetb
Oklahoma Christian 2,479
Lubbock Christian 2,100
Sul Ross 2,070

UMHB 2,713
HSU- 2,333
ETBU 1,800
HPU 1,400

HPU would be at the bottom in enrollment.... ETBU would be next to last. HSU with be 5th from the bottom. All of the former ASC schools would be in the bottom third in enrollment.

Most of the current LSC schools have stadiums that hold 10K or more. Some of them over 20K. Most of the ASC programs are in stadiums with 3-4K or less.

But in the Great American Conference.... which isn't a great fit for UMHB, HSU, or HPU based on geography.... might make the most sense for ETBU since most of the conference is settled into Arkansas or Oklahoma.

Arkansas Tech 12,009
Harding 6,009
Southwestern Okla 5,154
Southern Ark 4,138
U of Ark Monticello 3,659
East Central Oklahoma 4,447
Southeastern Oklahoma 3,889
Henderson State 3,530
Southern Nazarene 2,210
Oklahoma Baptist 2,097
Northwestern Okla 1857
Ouachita Baptist 1,569

ETBU would still be near the bottom in enrollment.....but there would be a lot more schools close in enrollment...and the conference isn't as top heavy as the LSC is with only one school over 10K. After Arkansas Tech the average enrollment drops rapidly. Stadiums in the GAC are more in the 3-5K range as well. Significantly smaller than the LSC. And the Travel....for ETBU at least would be a fraction of what they would see in the LSC.

It's also interesting to note....that tiny Ouachita Baptist, which is smaller than ETBU, has won the conference championship SEVEN times since 2011.

---------------------

I honestly don't know if the jump to D2 is viable for any of the Baptist 4. UMHB is likely the most poised and prepared to do it, followed by HSU. Just seems like a huge leap. Especially if it's into the LSC, lesser so into the GAC. I'm still scratching my head a little over Sul Ross' decision to jump up....even with the travel break they catch. Will they be competitive?

With no invites from another D3 conferences coming....... and being independent doesn't really seem viable for the long term, what's left?

If the ASC crumbles...... hard decisions will need to be made.

D2 and NAIA seems to be the fork in the road.

D2 appears to be an uphill battle......a steeper battle even still for HPU and ETBU.

The Sooner Conference in the NAIA makes geographical sense....and provides the potential of some really good rivalries.... but you lose the luster of being NCAA.

----------
To be honest....I feel a little ambivalent about going NAIA and into the Sooner Conference just because it will be seen as a step down from D3. But the travel and rivalries could be fun. And we might could become a contender immediately. But..... NAIA. Not just NAIA....but a generally bad NAIA conference that hasn't had much playoff success through the years.

But going D2 and getting man handled week after week by schools 4-5 times your size doesn't sound fun at all either.

Etchglow · June 28, 2023, 07:59:00 PM

Quote from: Mavchamp on June 28, 2023, 07:18:18 PM
I still don't think D2 would be a smart decision for most of the Baptist 4..... and financially it may not even be an option.

But Looking at the choices..... it would either be the Lone Star Conference or the Great American Conference.

LSC is loaded with schools significantly bigger than any of the Baptist 4.

Then there is the travel issue...which wouldn't be as strenuous on UMHB, HSU, and HPU. With many of the schools located in the western and central parts of Texas. But from far North East Texas...... it would be brutal for ETBU. Then toss in New Mexico, Washington, and Oregon for football.

Texas Women's 12,465
Angelo State 10,447
West Texas A&M 10,169
Central Washington 10,145
A&M Kingsville 8,783
UT Permian 7,628
U of Ark - Fort Smith 6,713
Western Oregon 6,233
Midwestern 6,093
Cameron University 5,449
Dallas Baptist 5,500
St. Edwards 5.500
Eastern New Mexico 5,574
UT Tyler 5,326
St. Marys 4.500
A&M Intn 4,298
Western New Mexico Statetb
Oklahoma Christian 2,479
Lubbock Christian 2,100
Sul Ross 2,070

UMHB 2,713
HSU- 2,333
ETBU 1,800
HPU 1,400

HPU would be at the bottom in enrollment.... ETBU would be next to last. HSU with be 5th from the bottom. All of the former ASC schools would be in the bottom third in enrollment.

Most of the current LSC schools have stadiums that hold 10K or more. Some of them over 20K. Most of the ASC programs are in stadiums with 3-4K or less.

But in the Great American Conference.... which isn't a great fit for UMHB, HSU, or HPU based on geography.... might make the most sense for ETBU since most of the conference is settled into Arkansas or Oklahoma.

Arkansas Tech 12,009
Harding 6,009
Southwestern Okla 5,154
Southern Ark 4,138
U of Ark Monticello 3,659
East Central Oklahoma 4,447
Southeastern Oklahoma 3,889
Henderson State 3,530
Southern Nazarene 2,210
Oklahoma Baptist 2,097
Northwestern Okla 1857
Ouachita Baptist 1,569

ETBU would still be near the bottom in enrollment.....but there would be a lot more schools close in enrollment...and the conference isn't as top heavy as the LSC is with only one school over 10K. After Arkansas Tech the average enrollment drops rapidly. Stadiums in the GAC are more in the 3-5K range as well. Significantly smaller than the LSC. And the Travel....for ETBU at least would be a fraction of what they would see in the LSC.

It's also interesting to note....that tiny Ouachita Baptist, which is smaller than ETBU, has won the conference championship SEVEN times since 2011.

---------------------

I honestly don't know if the jump to D2 is viable for any of the Baptist 4. UMHB is likely the most poised and prepared to do it, followed by HSU. Just seems like a huge leap. Especially if it's into the LSC, lesser so into the GAC. I'm still scratching my head a little over Sul Ross' decision to jump up....even with the travel break they catch. Will they be competitive?

With no invites from another D3 conferences coming....... and being independent doesn't really seem viable for the long term, what's left?

If the ASC crumbles...... hard decisions will need to be made.

D2 and NAIA seems to be the fork in the road.

D2 appears to be an uphill battle......a steeper battle even still for HPU and ETBU.

The Sooner Conference in the NAIA makes geographical sense....and provides the potential of some really good rivalries.... but you lose the luster of being NCAA.

----------
To be honest....I feel a little ambivalent about going NAIA and into the Sooner Conference just because it will be seen as a step down from D3. But the travel and rivalries could be fun. And we might could become a contender immediately. But..... NAIA. Not just NAIA....but a generally bad NAIA conference that hasn't had much playoff success through the years.

But going D2 and getting man handled week after week by schools 4-5 times your size doesn't sound fun at all either.

This is just me spitballing, but I bet if the lsc could get 3 or 4 of the Baptist 4 they'd jettison Central Washington and Western Oregon just the way they did Simon Fraser.

Yeah, I still don't get Sul Ross going d2 unless they saw the writing on the wall about the asc... They're actually going to travel more miles because of more teams even though the average trip is slightly shorter.

TheChucker · June 29, 2023, 11:22:45 AM

Quote from: Mavchamp on June 28, 2023, 07:18:18 PM
I still don't think D2 would be a smart decision for most of the Baptist 4..... and financially it may not even be an option.

But Looking at the choices..... it would either be the Lone Star Conference or the Great American Conference.

LSC is loaded with schools significantly bigger than any of the Baptist 4.

Then there is the travel issue...which wouldn't be as strenuous on UMHB, HSU, and HPU. With many of the schools located in the western and central parts of Texas. But from far North East Texas...... it would be brutal for ETBU. Then toss in New Mexico, Washington, and Oregon for football.

Texas Women's 12,465
Angelo State 10,447
West Texas A&M 10,169
Central Washington 10,145
A&M Kingsville 8,783
UT Permian 7,628
U of Ark - Fort Smith 6,713
Western Oregon 6,233
Midwestern 6,093
Cameron University 5,449
Dallas Baptist 5,500
St. Edwards 5.500
Eastern New Mexico 5,574
UT Tyler 5,326
St. Marys 4.500
A&M Intn 4,298
Western New Mexico Statetb
Oklahoma Christian 2,479
Lubbock Christian 2,100
Sul Ross 2,070

UMHB 2,713
HSU- 2,333
ETBU 1,800
HPU 1,400

HPU would be at the bottom in enrollment.... ETBU would be next to last. HSU with be 5th from the bottom. All of the former ASC schools would be in the bottom third in enrollment.

Most of the current LSC schools have stadiums that hold 10K or more. Some of them over 20K. Most of the ASC programs are in stadiums with 3-4K or less.

But in the Great American Conference.... which isn't a great fit for UMHB, HSU, or HPU based on geography.... might make the most sense for ETBU since most of the conference is settled into Arkansas or Oklahoma.

Arkansas Tech 12,009
Harding 6,009
Southwestern Okla 5,154
Southern Ark 4,138
U of Ark Monticello 3,659
East Central Oklahoma 4,447
Southeastern Oklahoma 3,889
Henderson State 3,530
Southern Nazarene 2,210
Oklahoma Baptist 2,097
Northwestern Okla 1857
Ouachita Baptist 1,569

ETBU would still be near the bottom in enrollment.....but there would be a lot more schools close in enrollment...and the conference isn't as top heavy as the LSC is with only one school over 10K. After Arkansas Tech the average enrollment drops rapidly. Stadiums in the GAC are more in the 3-5K range as well. Significantly smaller than the LSC. And the Travel....for ETBU at least would be a fraction of what they would see in the LSC.

It's also interesting to note....that tiny Ouachita Baptist, which is smaller than ETBU, has won the conference championship SEVEN times since 2011.

---------------------

I honestly don't know if the jump to D2 is viable for any of the Baptist 4. UMHB is likely the most poised and prepared to do it, followed by HSU. Just seems like a huge leap. Especially if it's into the LSC, lesser so into the GAC. I'm still scratching my head a little over Sul Ross' decision to jump up....even with the travel break they catch. Will they be competitive?

With no invites from another D3 conferences coming....... and being independent doesn't really seem viable for the long term, what's left?

If the ASC crumbles...... hard decisions will need to be made.

D2 and NAIA seems to be the fork in the road.

D2 appears to be an uphill battle......a steeper battle even still for HPU and ETBU.

The Sooner Conference in the NAIA makes geographical sense....and provides the potential of some really good rivalries.... but you lose the luster of being NCAA.

----------
To be honest....I feel a little ambivalent about going NAIA and into the Sooner Conference just because it will be seen as a step down from D3. But the travel and rivalries could be fun. And we might could become a contender immediately. But..... NAIA. Not just NAIA....but a generally bad NAIA conference that hasn't had much playoff success through the years.

But going D2 and getting man handled week after week by schools 4-5 times your size doesn't sound fun at all either.

Good post with lots of data. Just throwing out options (with absolutely no real background knowledge), but another option would be for the ASC to join a coalition of the former Heartland conference members of mostly private schools in non-football sports and affiliate with the LSC or another conference for football. That said, in skimming sports standings in the LSC, it looks to me like the private schools do just fine competitively. They might be smaller, but private schools often have an appealing differentiation factor that directional state universities just don't have.

On a side note, I've looked up enrollment data too and it seems like no two sources ever match and the differences can be dramatic. All over the board.

Pat Coleman · June 29, 2023, 12:01:58 PM

Quote from: TheChucker on June 29, 2023, 11:22:45 AM
On a side note, I've looked up enrollment data too and it seems like no two sources ever match and the differences can be dramatic. All over the board.

Same. That's why we use the DOE's Equity in Athletics data as our official source for enrollment numbers, using the number of FT undergraduates.

TheChucker · June 29, 2023, 12:38:43 PM

Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 29, 2023, 12:01:58 PM
Quote from: TheChucker on June 29, 2023, 11:22:45 AM
On a side note, I've looked up enrollment data too and it seems like no two sources ever match and the differences can be dramatic. All over the board.

Same. That's why we use the DOE's Equity in Athletics data as our official source for enrollment numbers, using the number of FT undergraduates.

I've used the same. Here's what I came up with for the 2021 data for TX schools with football FCS and below (I couldn't figure out how to paste in a formatted picture).

Undergrad   TX w/Football     Division
3,032   Abilene Christian University   NCAA Division I-FCS
2,164   Houston Baptist University   NCAA Division I-FCS
4,493   Lamar University   NCAA Division I-FCS
7,578   Prairie View A & M University   NCAA Division I-FCS
14,352   Sam Houston State University   NCAA Division I-FCS
8,316   Stephen F Austin State University   NCAA Division I-FCS
8,567   Tarleton State University   NCAA Division I-FCS
4,877   Texas Southern University   NCAA Division I-FCS
3,961   University of the Incarnate Word   NCAA Division I-FCS

4,811   Angelo State University   NCAA Division II with football
3,617   Midwestern State University   NCAA Division II with football
5,412   Texas A & M University-Commerce   NCAA Division II with football
3,997   Texas A & M University-Kingsville   NCAA Division II with football
5,332   West Texas A & M University   NCAA Division II with football

1,204   Austin College   NCAA Division III with football
1,223   East Texas Baptist University   NCAA Division III with football
1,411   Hardin-Simmons University   NCAA Division III with football
715   Howard Payne University   NCAA Division III with football
996   McMurry University   NCAA Division III with football
1,479   Southwestern University   NCAA Division III with football
984   Sul Ross State University   NCAA Division III with football
1,350   Texas Lutheran University   NCAA Division III with football
2,471   Trinity University   NCAA Division III with football
2,989   University of Mary Hardin-Baylor   NCAA Division III with football

1,269   SAGU     NAIA Division I
671   Texas College   NAIA Division I
1,299   Texas Wesleyan University   NAIA Division I
1,384   Wayland Baptist University   NAIA Division I

Ron Boerger · June 29, 2023, 01:28:27 PM

It would be interesting to see what those numbers showed (at least for the D3 schools) five years ago.

TheChucker · June 29, 2023, 03:09:34 PM

Quote from: Ron Boerger on June 29, 2023, 01:28:27 PM
It would be interesting to see what those numbers showed (at least for the D3 schools) five years ago.

Undergrad only per: https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/

2021     2016   TX w/Football     Division
3,032   3,550   Abilene Christian University   NCAA Division I-FCS
2,164   2,160   Houston Baptist University   NCAA Division I-FCS
4,493   6,161   Lamar University   NCAA Division I-FCS
7,578   6,817   Prairie View A & M University   NCAA Division I-FCS
14,352   14,497   Sam Houston State University   NCAA Division I-FCS
8,316   9,571   Stephen F Austin State University   NCAA Division I-FCS
8,567   8,059   Tarleton State University   NCAA Division I-FCS
4,877   5,776   Texas Southern University   NCAA Division I-FCS
3,961   4,488   University of the Incarnate Word   NCAA Division I-FCS

4,811   4,976   Angelo State University   NCAA Division II with football
3,617   4,122   Midwestern State University   NCAA Division II with football
5,412   6,007   Texas A & M University-Commerce   NCAA Division II with football
3,997   5,094   Texas A & M University-Kingsville   NCAA Division II with football
5,332   5,650   West Texas A & M University   NCAA Division II with football

1,204   1,258   Austin College   NCAA Division III with football
1,223   1,177   East Texas Baptist University   NCAA Division III with football
1,411   1,520   Hardin-Simmons University   NCAA Division III with football
715     959   Howard Payne University   NCAA Division III with football
996     932   McMurry University   NCAA Division III with football
1,479   1,464   Southwestern University   NCAA Division III with football
984     1,377   Sul Ross State University   NCAA Division III with football
1,350   1,212   Texas Lutheran University   NCAA Division III with football
2,471   2,244   Trinity University   NCAA Division III with football
2,989   2,994   University of Mary Hardin-Baylor   NCAA Division III with football

1,269   1,506   SAGU   NAIA Division I
671     920   Texas College   NAIA Division I
1,299   1,487   Texas Wesleyan University   NAIA Division I
1,384   1,073   Wayland Baptist University   NAIA Division I

Ron Boerger · June 29, 2023, 04:41:42 PM

2016	2021	Change	School	Classif
3550	3032	-17.1%	ACU	D1 FCS
2160	2164	0.2%	HBU	D1 FCS
6161	4493	-37.1%	LU	D1 FCS
6817	7578	10.0%	PVA&M	D1 FCS
14497	14352	-1.0%	SHSU	D1 FCS
9571	8316	-15.1%	SFA	D1 FCS
8059	8567	5.9%	Tarleton	D1 FCS
5776	4877	-18.4%	TSU	D1 FCS
4488	3961	-13.3%	UIW	D1 FCS
61079	57340	-6.5%	TOTAL	D1 FCS
------
2016	2021	Change	School	Classif
4976	4811	-3.4%	ASU	D2
4122	3617	-14.0%	MSU	D2
6007	5412	-11.0%	TAMU-C	D2
5094	3997	-27.4%	TAMU-K	D2
5650	5332	-6.0%	WTA&M	D2
25849	23169	-11.6%	TOTAL	D2
------
2016	2021	Change	School	Classif
1258	1204	-4.5%	AC	D3
1177	1223	3.8%	ETBU	D3
1520	1411	-7.7%	HSU	D3
959	715	-34.1%	HPU	D3
932	996	6.4%	McM	D3
1464	1479	1.0%	SW	D3
1377	984	-39.9%	SRSU	D3
1212	1350	10.2%	TLU	D3
2244	2471	9.2%	TU	D3
2994	2989	-0.2%	UMHB	D3
15137	14822	-2.1%	TOTAL	D3
------
2016	2021	Change	School	Classif
1506	1269	-18.7%	SAGU	NAIA D1
920	671	-37.1%	TxColl	NAIA D1
1487	1299	-14.5%	TxWeslyan	NAIA D1
1073	1384	22.5%	WBU	NAIA D1
4986	4623	-7.9%	TOTAL	NAIA D1

TheChucker · June 29, 2023, 05:12:55 PM

Quote from: Ron Boerger on June 29, 2023, 04:41:42 PM

   2016
   2021
   Change
   School
   Classif
   3550
   3032
   -17.1%
   ACU
   D1 FCS
   2160
   2164
   0.2%
   HBU
   D1 FCS
   6161
   4493
   -37.1%
   LU
   D1 FCS
   6817
   7578
   10.0%
   PVA&M
   D1 FCS
   14497
   14352
   -1.0%
   SHSU
   D1 FCS
   9571
   8316
   -15.1%
   SFA
   D1 FCS
   8059
   8567
   5.9%
   Tarleton
   D1 FCS
   5776
   4877
   -18.4%
   TSU
   D1 FCS
   4488
   3961
   -13.3%
   UIW
   D1 FCS
   61079
   57340
   -6.5%
   TOTAL
   D1 FCS
------
   2016
   2021
   Change
   School
   Classif
   4976
   4811
   -3.4%
   ASU
   D2
   4122
   3617
   -14.0%
   MSU
   D2
   6007
   5412
   -11.0%
   TAMU-C
   D2
   5094
   3997
   -27.4%
   TAMU-K
   D2
   5650
   5332
   -6.0%
   WTA&M
   D2
   25849
   23169
   -11.6%
   TOTAL
   D2
------
   2016
   2021
   Change
   School
   Classif
   1258
   1204
   -4.5%
   AC
   D3
   1177
   1223
   3.8%
   ETBU
   D3
   1520
   1411
   -7.7%
   HSU
   D3
   959
   715
   -34.1%
   HPU
   D3
   932
   996
   6.4%
   McM
   D3
   1464
   1479
   1.0%
   SW
   D3
   1377
   984
   -39.9%
   SRSU
   D3
   1212
   1350
   10.2%
   TLU
   D3
   2244
   2471
   9.2%
   TU
   D3
   2994
   2989
   -0.2%
   UMHB
   D3
   15137
   14822
   -2.1%
   TOTAL
   D3
------
   2016
   2021
   Change
   School
   Classif
   1506
   1269
   -18.7%
   SAGU
   NAIA D1
   920
   671
   -37.1%
   TxColl
   NAIA D1
   1487
   1299
   -14.5%
   TxWeslyan
   NAIA D1
   1073
   1384
   22.5%
   WBU
   NAIA D1
   4986
   4623
   -7.9%
   TOTAL
   NAIA D1

Interesting that the private D3 schools (all D3 except Sul Ross) in aggregate have actually grown slightly where most everything else has cratered.