FB: American Southwest Conference

[IC798891]

As to the cost per hour of tuition, I'm never going to belittle a program for having affordable tuition. I seem to remember tuition at UMHB being around 8k/semester back in 05-08 when I was there the first time. I was able to pay the vast majority of it through part time jobs... Today it is 16k...

10 total hours of work per class, completed over the course of a month is not a legitimate college course, and the fact that you guys just want to ignore that shows, that like most posters here, you care more about football than anything.

Whatever. Enjoy your "game" against the church recreational league team pretending they're receiving a legitimate college education.

[jknezek]

As to the cost per hour of tuition, I'm never going to belittle a program for having affordable tuition. I seem to remember tuition at UMHB being around 8k/semester back in 05-08 when I was there the first time. I was able to pay the vast majority of it through part time jobs... Today it is 16k...

10 total hours of work per class, completed over the course of a month is not a legitimate college course, and the fact that you guys just want to ignore that shows, that like most posters here, you care more about football than anything.

Whatever. Enjoy your "game" against the church recreational league team pretending they're receiving a legitimate college education.

I think most of the people on this board recognize the game for what it is... a desperate attempt to put something on the schedule. The NCAA doesn't consider it a legit game, I don't think really anyone on this board considers it a legitimate game, it's a scrimmage that's not being called that.

I don't consider a school accredited by the National Bible College Association to have any useful accreditation. It's like being a vocational school for becoming clergy, although probably not as strict or difficult, or important, as learning to weld or drive heavy equipment or do plumbing.

But it's easy to throw stones from Ithaca New York, where you can drive 50 miles in any direction and run into a D3 school and, in a 100 mile radius, there are probably more than a dozen options for a football opponent. If you draw a 4 hour circle for your OOC games, there are more OOC options than there are likely D3 football schools in all of Texas.

The ASC schools are screwed. Their conference exploded around them, no one seems to want them, and almost no one wants to play them. We can point fingers at whose fault it is, but I don't think any of us really know why they are being ostracized by their Texas peers. But it makes perfect sense why they aren't making flight games every week, especially with no hope of return games.

So they ended up with a steaming pile of garbage on the schedule. I don't know what the solution is, but this is unsustainable and I suspect the ASC schools are well aware. So yelling and screaming about what constitutes a game or a college is silly. They know. They don't want to play this game. They just didn't have much of a choice. And calling it a game instead of a scrimmage and playing it in the regular schedule Saturday at least gives them a reason to bring some fans to the stadium and let the players play.

[Pat Coleman]

For the future could UMHB follow a path similar to that St Thomas chose when they were kicked out of the MIAA? They went D1 Summit Conference for all but football and non-scholarship FCS Pioneer Football League for football?

They were able to get a waiver from the long transition process reclassifying to D1 because of extenuating circumstances.

The Cru could go Pioneer for football and Southland for all other sports, if it could get a similar waiver.

https://www.pioneer-football.org/standings/2023/

https://www.southland.org/allstandings.aspx?path=mbball

Their extenuating circumstances included having ice hockey, which is essentially nonexistent in Division II.

There is now a pathway, however, to go from III to I. Last time I saw the form, it was 16 pages long and required a $1.85M application fee.

[ADL70]

Doesn't seem feasible without a waiver

[TheChucker]

For the future could UMHB follow a path similar to that St Thomas chose when they were kicked out of the MIAA? They went D1 Summit Conference for all but football and non-scholarship FCS Pioneer Football League for football?

They were able to get a waiver from the long transition process reclassifying to D1 because of extenuating circumstances.

The Cru could go Pioneer for football and Southland for all other sports, if it could get a similar waiver.

https://www.pioneer-football.org/standings/2023/

https://www.southland.org/allstandings.aspx?path=mbball

I've been wondering the same (about the Pioneer option). Pioneer would cost a lot less in terms of football scholarships but cost more from a football travel perspective. A conference like the Southland is within a decent travel footprint while the Pioneer is national.

I think the elephant in the room for UMHB (and HSU?) is their massive football roster. Dropping down to D2 and D1 sized rosters could result in losing 50-75+ male students and their tuition/room/board. The extra costs of moving up divisions would require replacing that revenue. I'm guessing D2 doesn't have much outside revenue advantage over high D3.

The St. Thomas situation was a bit different in that school leaders, since the 1990s, had a long term vision to expand UST's reach from regional to national status as an institution. They want to be known as a national Catholic University. It was inevitable that they eventually go D1 and they were a good fit size-wise, have a nice endowment, and some whale donors. I get the sense UMHB has ambitions beyond being a small regional Christian/Baptist school, but do they really want to be a D1 player or have the capacity? Baylor already has that major D1 status a short drive up I-35.       

[Mavchamp]

I think the elephant in the room for UMHB (and HSU?) is their massive football roster. Dropping down to D2 and D1 sized rosters could result in losing 50-75+ male students and their tuition/room/board. The extra costs of moving up divisions would require replacing that revenue. I'm guessing D2 doesn't have much outside revenue advantage over high D3.     

This is where I have to plead ignorance on the rules between D3 and D2.

Obviously with D3 none of the football players are getting athletic scholarships.  And most of them aren't getting much playing time either...not with 100+ on the roster.  Those guys are paying to go to school AND to play football...likely through loans.

Just because UMHB was to jump to FCS..... couldn't those guys continue to be on the roster as non-scholarship? 

The players getting scholarships would likely be starters...but all the others...couldn't the status quo remain the same?  A ton of players on the roster that rarely or never see the field?  Or does D2 limit the number on the roster?

I wouldn't think you'd see a mass exodus of players if they can be on the roster at the FCS level just like they were at the D3 level.  And still paying no less.

Seems like there's no difference in 125 on the roster in D3 Vs. D2 if most aren't getting money in any way and most are paying to be enrolled and on the roster.....

But I honestly don't know the rules.

-------

If I was a UMMHB fan I'd be very wary of a jump to FCS (likely the Southland).  They are a big fish in D3...... but FCS.... those schools are Goliaths by enrollment comparisons.  Lots of money and donors with those larger schools.  Looks like a tough hill to climb.

I'm just a little dumbfounded by their total lack of interest in D2.  I think they are immediately competitive in D2 (Lone Star).  They may not be a playoff team immediately...but I think they are in top third of the conference from the get-go and would likely improve from there.

In the Southland..... do they even finish in the top half?

[BSCpanthers]

UMHB currently has 3,900 students, Tulsa, at the FBS level, is the smallest school at 3,800 students.  I can't find FCS enrollment numbers, but I have to believe that UMHB would be well ahead of more than a few schools at that level. 

Also, there is no financial advantage of being DII, only additional cost.  At the DI, FCS, level, there is money to be had.  You make basketball money from the tournament.  There is recognition in many sports if you make the playoffs in baseball, softball and basketball.  As well as money games to be played against FBS programs, from a few hundred thousand against a "G5" team to over a million against the right "P?" school. 

[Riley Zayas]

Exactly. D1 is much more profitable, especially long-term, and brings more recognition IF you can make the tournament in basketball, baseball, softball, volleyball, etc. But I think people underestimate how hard that is in a one-bid league. And it's even harder to win in the tournament because you're going up against big-time powerhouses as a low seed almost certainly every year. But it makes more sense financially and prestige-wise to move up to D1 rather than going D2.

D2's partial scholarship structure can be worrisome, especially for a private school like UMHB. If UMHB were to move to D2, they'd be recruiting against public universities, who have lower tuition fees and costs because they get that state money. As a result, a 50% scholarship at UMHB might still mean a prospective student-athlete is paying more for school than if they had a 25% scholarship at a public school. Currently, I believe the LSC in football is made up of entirely public schools. So I have to guess that's where the hesitancy comes from.

[Mavchamp]

Looking at possible rivalries as the Baptist Four are looking at being split apart after the ASC completed it implosion......

Hardin Simmons
I think most are expecting them to move to the LSC..... where they appear to fit in pretty well geographically. 

San Angelo, UTPB, Midwestern State, and Lubbock Christian are make for good regional rivalries.  West Texas University and Sul Ross could likely be added to that by stretching the search area just a tad.  Six Schools that HSU could build some strong rivalries with.

The trips to South Texas will be brutal travel-wise.

Not to mention all the non-football schools in the DFW like UTD, TWU, and Dallas Baptist.

Seems like a good move for HSU.  If they can be competitive...and I'm thinking they can.... the LSC will be a good thing for them.

Mary Hardin Baylor
Reports are saying they have no interest in the D2 ranks....so really no point in mentioning the LSC.  I think most believe the Crusaders are immediate contenders in the LSC....

If FCS is their goal....it's likely the Southland.

There will definitely be some travel involved....with several long trips to South Louisiana.  Not to mention long trips to Houston, Beaumont, and San Antonio.

But the size of the SLC schools....their alum groups....boosters....and budgets has to be a matter of concern.

UTRGV has over 32,000
Lamar with 17,000+
SE Lousiana with 13,000+
SFA with 11,000+
TA&M-C with 10,000+

Houston Christian is the smallest at 4,200.

I don't think anyone thinks UMHB CAN'T compete.... but it could prove to be a long difficult journey. A fanbase that's use to instant success... this could be a tough road.

I think some people are still scratching their heads at the refusal to even consider D2.  LSC seems to be a great fit.


Howard Payne
For the same reasons listed for HSU... the Lone Star conference makes geographical sense for HPU.  Lots of regional rivalries.

BUT unfortunately for HPU....they aren't competitively ready for the LSC like HSU is.

Like some of the concerns about UMHB in the Southland..... HPU would face similar issues in the LSC.  They would be the smallest fish in the pond.

Lubbock Christian is the only school in the LSC remotely close to HPU in enrollment.

TWU with 15,000+
San Angelo with 10,000+
UT Tyler- 9,000+
West Texas 9,000+
Kingville 6,000+

Pretty intimidating numbers for a school of 1,200.

With no D3 prospects unless the SCAC throws out a lifeline.... D2 is a big jump... that leaves the NAIA, which actually looks pretty appealing.

The Sooner conference offers a couple of regional rivals thanks to Wayland Baptist, SAGU, and Texas Wesleyan.  The heart of the SAC is in Oklahoma.... so it's comparable to HPU's current drives to Sul Ross and ETBU.

Another appealing factor is how HPU's enrollment is near the middle of the conference compared to other members. 

East Texas Baptist University
ETBU, unlike the other 3 Baptist schools, has a couple of options for D2 thanks to geography.

The LSC is one option.  But unlike HSU, HPU..... it's a geoprahical stretch for them.  With the bulk of the LSC in West and South Texas..... ETBU would virtually be on deserted island when it comes to football.

Most of the football schools in the LSC are over 10 hours away....or more.

Then there are some of the same concerns with the LSC that I listed with HPU.... enrollment disparities.  While ETBU has almost 900 more students than HPU.... ETBU would still be a very small fish in a pond full of much bigger fish.

Far travel....small fish..... meh.

Enter the Great American Conference... made mostly of schools from Arkansas and Oklahoma.  This just makes geographical sense.  All of a sudden ETBU has most of their football rivals within a 4-5 hour drive.

Not to mention... enrollments in the GAC are significantly smaller than the LSC...and closer to ETBU's numbers.

Finally....the NAIA>......The SAC seems to make the most sense....for football at least.

ETBU would regain longtime ASC rival Louisiana Christian.  Texas College is only an hour away.  SAGU and Texas Wesleyan are each less than 3 hours away.

For all other sports they head to the Red River conference where they have a number of local rivals including LSU- Shreveport, A&M Texarkana, Jarvis, and Paul Quinn.

--------

Gotta talk about this stuff I guess since we are getting nothing but crickets from the ASC office.

Been a slow painful death....some of it self-inflicted.  But executed by the SCAC. imho

[Mavchamp]

UMHB currently has 3,900 students, Tulsa, at the FBS level, is the smallest school at 3,800 students.  I can't find FCS enrollment numbers, but I have to believe that UMHB would be well ahead of more than a few schools at that level. 

Also, there is no financial advantage of being DII, only additional cost.  At the DI, FCS, level, there is money to be had.  You make basketball money from the tournament.  There is recognition in many sports if you make the playoffs in baseball, softball and basketball.  As well as money games to be played against FBS programs, from a few hundred thousand against a "G5" team to over a million against the right "P?" school. 

wasn't

UMHB currently has 3,900 students, Tulsa, at the FBS level, is the smallest school at 3,800 students.  I can't find FCS enrollment numbers, but I have to believe that UMHB would be well ahead of more than a few schools at that level. 

Also, there is no financial advantage of being DII, only additional cost.  At the DI, FCS, level, there is money to be had.  You make basketball money from the tournament.  There is recognition in many sports if you make the playoffs in baseball, softball and basketball.  As well as money games to be played against FBS programs, from a few hundred thousand against a "G5" team to over a million against the right "P?" school. 

[/i]

No doubt UMHB is more suited for the jump to FCS than anyone else in the ASC.  I don't see HSU, HPU, or ETBU considering that.

And I agree there is money to be made.... esp in basketball IF you get into the tourney... but that's a HUGE IF.  The Southland isn't exactly a top tier mid-major.  Unless you win the conference....you probably won't get in.

And as for football money....the landscape is literally changing every day.

I think the days of million dollar payoffs from Power schools to FCS schools is about to dry up and disappear.  Power schools are going to start playing other Power schools in conference games... they may pick up a G-5 game....but even those are going to become rare.  FCS Vs. Power games are endangered.

Now...seeing a merger between FCS and G-5 in the future could be interesting....

[BSCpanthers]

Mary Hardin Baylor
Reports are saying they have no interest in the D2 ranks....so really no point in mentioning the LSC.  I think most believe the Crusaders are immediate contenders in the LSC....

If FCS is their goal....it's likely the Southland.

There will definitely be some travel involved....with several long trips to South Louisiana.  Not to mention long trips to Houston, Beaumont, and San Antonio.

But the size of the SLC schools....their alum groups....boosters....and budgets has to be a matter of concern.

UTRGV has over 32,000
Lamar with 17,000+
SE Lousiana with 13,000+
SFA with 11,000+
TA&M-C with 10,000+

Houston Christian is the smallest at 4,200.

I don't think anyone thinks UMHB CAN'T compete.... but it could prove to be a long difficult journey. A fanbase that's use to instant success... this could be a tough road.

I think some people are still scratching their heads at the refusal to even consider D2.  LSC seems to be a great fit.

Since when is a 3 hour bus ride a long trip???

[BSCpanthers]

UMHB currently has 3,900 students, Tulsa, at the FBS level, is the smallest school at 3,800 students.  I can't find FCS enrollment numbers, but I have to believe that UMHB would be well ahead of more than a few schools at that level. 

Also, there is no financial advantage of being DII, only additional cost.  At the DI, FCS, level, there is money to be had.  You make basketball money from the tournament.  There is recognition in many sports if you make the playoffs in baseball, softball and basketball.  As well as money games to be played against FBS programs, from a few hundred thousand against a "G5" team to over a million against the right "P?" school. 

wasn't

UMHB currently has 3,900 students, Tulsa, at the FBS level, is the smallest school at 3,800 students.  I can't find FCS enrollment numbers, but I have to believe that UMHB would be well ahead of more than a few schools at that level. 

Also, there is no financial advantage of being DII, only additional cost.  At the DI, FCS, level, there is money to be had.  You make basketball money from the tournament.  There is recognition in many sports if you make the playoffs in baseball, softball and basketball.  As well as money games to be played against FBS programs, from a few hundred thousand against a "G5" team to over a million against the right "P?" school. 

[/i]

No doubt UMHB is more suited for the jump to FCS than anyone else in the ASC.  I don't see HSU, HPU, or ETBU considering that.

And I agree there is money to be made.... esp in basketball IF you get into the tourney... but that's a HUGE IF.  The Southland isn't exactly a top tier mid-major.  Unless you win the conference....you probably won't get in.

And as for football money....the landscape is literally changing every day.

I think the days of million dollar payoffs from Power schools to FCS schools is about to dry up and disappear.  Power schools are going to start playing other Power schools in conference games... they may pick up a G-5 game....but even those are going to become rare.  FCS Vs. Power games are endangered.

Now...seeing a merger between FCS and G-5 in the future could be interesting....

When a conference mate makes the tournament, which one will every year, the conference makes money to be split between its members.  When was the last time the ASC cut a check to its member schools??? 

[Mavchamp]

Mary Hardin Baylor
Reports are saying they have no interest in the D2 ranks....so really no point in mentioning the LSC.  I think most believe the Crusaders are immediate contenders in the LSC....

If FCS is their goal....it's likely the Southland.

There will definitely be some travel involved....with several long trips to South Louisiana.  Not to mention long trips to Houston, Beaumont, and San Antonio.

But the size of the SLC schools....their alum groups....boosters....and budgets has to be a matter of concern.

UTRGV has over 32,000
Lamar with 17,000+
SE Lousiana with 13,000+
SFA with 11,000+
TA&M-C with 10,000+

Houston Christian is the smallest at 4,200.

I don't think anyone thinks UMHB CAN'T compete.... but it could prove to be a long difficult journey. A fanbase that's use to instant success... this could be a tough road.

I think some people are still scratching their heads at the refusal to even consider D2.  LSC seems to be a great fit.

Since when is a 3 hour bus ride a long trip???

Who said anything about a 3 hour bus ride?

Belton to New Orleans 8:22 mins
Belton to Hammond, La 7:26 mins
Belton to Thibodaux, La 7:16 mins
Belton to Edinburg 5:05 mins
Belton to Lake Charles 4;40 mins
Belton to Natchitoches 4:41 mins
Belton to Beaumont 4:02 mins

[CNU85]

Many of you have seen this website. Sometimes the numbers look suspect. Example: Lamar University Enrollment. But checking other institutions, it seems close. Admittedly, I have not checked enrollment at all schools.

If you sort on Conference and select either Southland or Lonestar (or both), then click next you will see full member schools in that conference as well as "enrollment" figures.

Equity in Athletics Data

[BSCpanthers]

Mary Hardin Baylor
Reports are saying they have no interest in the D2 ranks....so really no point in mentioning the LSC.  I think most believe the Crusaders are immediate contenders in the LSC....

If FCS is their goal....it's likely the Southland.

There will definitely be some travel involved....with several long trips to South Louisiana.  Not to mention long trips to Houston, Beaumont, and San Antonio.

But the size of the SLC schools....their alum groups....boosters....and budgets has to be a matter of concern.

UTRGV has over 32,000
Lamar with 17,000+
SE Lousiana with 13,000+
SFA with 11,000+
TA&M-C with 10,000+

Houston Christian is the smallest at 4,200.

I don't think anyone thinks UMHB CAN'T compete.... but it could prove to be a long difficult journey. A fanbase that's use to instant success... this could be a tough road.

I think some people are still scratching their heads at the refusal to even consider D2.  LSC seems to be a great fit.

Since when is a 3 hour bus ride a long trip???

Who said anything about a 3 hour bus ride?

Belton to New Orleans 8:22 mins
Belton to Hammond, La 7:26 mins
Belton to Thibodaux, La 7:16 mins
Belton to Edinburg 5:05 mins
Belton to Lake Charles 4;40 mins
Belton to Natchitoches 4:41 mins
Belton to Beaumont 4:02 mins

You said long trips to Houston and San Antonio.  4 hours still wouldn't be considered a long trip.  Even in the SAA most road games were more than 4 hours away.