FB: American Southwest Conference

[crufootball]

Ralph Turner

Thanks for the info. I thought they might root for the team in the white jerseys. I appreciate the help.

I did find some humor last year at the HSU game which was in Abilene when they had a White-Out even though we were wearing white jerseys. 

[MUC57]

crufootball

I think I'm sorry I brought it up. About the jerseys, that is. Especially after your comment.
As everyone on these boards knows, I'm old. I get mixed up and I forget things!
Go Raiders and Go Cru!

[Ralph Turner]

Ralph Turner

Thanks for the info. I thought they might root for the team in the white jerseys. I appreciate the help.

Glad to be of assistance. Fortunately, they seldom attend a UMU home game. 

[merlecanlas]

I've seen Merle's antics...C- trolling at best.  Without previous knowledge of an infraction of some sorts...I'm not sure how someone in good conscience can assume that UMHB cheats...unless they are jealous or a hater. 

I'll try harder.

Coach Pete has been the only coach in UMHB's history, 20 years of success!  That's a lot of experience in the NCAA and dealing with their compliance rules.  I have seen numerous people alluding to the fact that Fredenburg was just trying to help out multiple student-athletes in need.  While that is admirable, with 20 years experience Fredenburg should have known better than to provide extra benefits.  He was either ignorant of the NCAA rules, or he knowingly broke them and was hoping to not get caught, or he is the greatest human in the world and sacrificed his reputation and the reputation of the program, three months salary ($50k+?) and three games in order to just help a couple of players.  Two out of those three arent good.  That's just the football coach.  Did the athletic department know what was going on?  Did they turn a blind eye to everything going on?  There were other violations outside of the football program?  yikes

UMHB is just trying to keep the big, bad NCAA from snooping around Belton too much. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

You don't self report and then hope the NCAA won't ask questions... not how it works.

[Ralph Turner]

I've seen Merle's antics...C- trolling at best.  Without previous knowledge of an infraction of some sorts...I'm not sure how someone in good conscience can assume that UMHB cheats...unless they are jealous or a hater.  It is not logical for UMHB to self report, open themselves up for scrutiny, and then make false statements to the media regarding the issue that they self reported about.  The truth is going to come out...why falsify the details and make the fallout worse? They would be better off not giving any details at all.  I would think that its better to be a cheat...than a liar and a cheat. I was just curious if I was missing something...

My first thought is that it was an "innocent" episode of NCAA Handbook-defined misconduct by someone very remote from the upper-levels of the program and the "Captain-of-the-Ship" is taking the infraction.

[Pat Coleman]

I've seen Merle's antics...C- trolling at best.  Without previous knowledge of an infraction of some sorts...I'm not sure how someone in good conscience can assume that UMHB cheats...unless they are jealous or a hater. 

I'll try harder.

Coach Pete has been the only coach in UMHB's history, 20 years of success!  That's a lot of experience in the NCAA and dealing with their compliance rules.  I have seen numerous people alluding to the fact that Fredenburg was just trying to help out multiple student-athletes in need.  While that is admirable, with 20 years experience Fredenburg should have known better than to provide extra benefits.  He was either ignorant of the NCAA rules, or he knowingly broke them and was hoping to not get caught, or he is the greatest human in the world and sacrificed his reputation and the reputation of the program, three months salary ($50k+?) and three games in order to just help a couple of players.  Two out of those three arent good.  That's just the football coach.  Did the athletic department know what was going on?  Did they turn a blind eye to everything going on?  There were other violations outside of the football program?  yikes

UMHB is just trying to keep the big, bad NCAA from snooping around Belton too much.

We get it. Trolls gotta troll. But we don't have to let you keep trolling on D3boards.com, for sure.

[merlecanlas]

I've seen Merle's antics...C- trolling at best.  Without previous knowledge of an infraction of some sorts...I'm not sure how someone in good conscience can assume that UMHB cheats...unless they are jealous or a hater. 

I'll try harder.

Coach Pete has been the only coach in UMHB's history, 20 years of success!  That's a lot of experience in the NCAA and dealing with their compliance rules.  I have seen numerous people alluding to the fact that Fredenburg was just trying to help out multiple student-athletes in need.  While that is admirable, with 20 years experience Fredenburg should have known better than to provide extra benefits.  He was either ignorant of the NCAA rules, or he knowingly broke them and was hoping to not get caught, or he is the greatest human in the world and sacrificed his reputation and the reputation of the program, three months salary ($50k+?) and three games in order to just help a couple of players.  Two out of those three arent good.  That's just the football coach.  Did the athletic department know what was going on?  Did they turn a blind eye to everything going on?  There were other violations outside of the football program?  yikes

UMHB is just trying to keep the big, bad NCAA from snooping around Belton too much.

We get it. Trolls gotta troll. But we don't have to let you keep trolling on D3boards.com, for sure.

questioning a highly successful D3 HC "unintentionally" providing extra benefits is trolling?  That's quite a "captain-of-the-ship" punishment for a mistake.  Does PF not know the rules?  Does PF not care about the rules? or is PF trying to skirt the rules?

[DFWCrufan]

There is a kind of disadvantage to this whole thing in discussing much, I asked my kids (who attend) and word around campus is quiet as well but to say they had let the students know before there was any other release.

So troll away, (snore) Not like the kids involved had any questionable legal problems...

[Pat Coleman]

questioning a highly successful D3 HC "unintentionally" providing extra benefits is trolling? 

It's part of a long-standing pattern of behavior over multiple personalities, as you well know.

[merlecanlas]

There is a kind of disadvantage to this whole thing in discussing much, I asked my kids (who attend) and word around campus is quiet as well but to say they had let the students know before there was any other release.

So troll away, (snore) Not like the kids involved had any questionable legal problems...

not sure what "legal problems" have to do with this UMHB situation, oh wait you are "trolling" about the Mount Union thing....I get it...

[UMHB03]

There is a kind of disadvantage to this whole thing in discussing much, I asked my kids (who attend) and word around campus is quiet as well but to say they had let the students know before there was any other release.

So troll away, (snore) Not like the kids involved had any questionable legal problems...

not sure what "legal problems" have to do with this UMHB situation, oh wait you are "trolling" about the Mount Union thing....I get it...

Yep. Stones.... glass houses.... all that.

[yessir]

Once again many many assumptions not supported by facts at all. What are you basing all of these assumptions on? I have a lot of connections in Belton and seem to be lacking the information that you have. You either have a closer connection than I do (doubt it)...or you're assuming a bunch of BS to make yourself feel better about your team.

[Frank Rossi]

So, I'm going to surprise a lot of you by actually agreeing with Merle on this one to a certain extent.  The NCAA does not use mistake of fact or mistake of "law" as an absolute mitigation device when it comes to coaches, programs, and/or schools.  No matter how well-intentioned the activities of one of those entities may seem, the adage that "the road to Hell is paved by good intentions" becomes the slogan when this process is encountered.  We have seen the school essentially let Coach Fred take the brunt of this with the suspensions named — but the NCAA does not usually allow the school to push the blame to the Coach since it assumes the school is at least partially to blame, especially when multiple acts are committed.  Maybe the school simply hasn't announced what their own proposed punishment would be here, but I would have to guess there would be something upcoming for the school.

Now, having said that, I think it's important to understand just how easy it is for a school to end up in trouble for what seems like an innocent scenario if they don't maintain some level of oversight.  Let's use, as the example brought up here, the legal issues experienced in Florida by another student-athlete.  I could name at least three different ways that his school could end up on the wrong side of the NCAA's Enforcement Division because of a situation like his if the school did not monitor every step of how this played out (we have no information that would suggest they didn't — but this is simply being stated to show how broad "compliance" must be for everyone's sake).  Let's take a look:

1) Financial Benefit - In the situation named, the player had existing traffic tickets that remained unpaid and then faced additional fines from new tickets in November.  Suddenly, despite trouble paying the original tickets, the player was able to pay off what I believe was nearly $1,000 in fines and fees.  Now, there are many ways that could have happened, including a family member paying them off fully in the normal course.  However, if, for instance, someone at the school suggested the player reach out to a friend of the program/booster for a no-interest or low-interest loan, that could be considered impermissible by the NCAA, even if the intent is for the loan to be paid off.  Essentially, the player's status as a student-athlete cannot lead to a benefit received that wouldn't be offered to all students of the institution.  In addition, some low- and all no-interest loans can violate IRS rules and end up containing what the NCAA would qualify as de facto gifts in terms of the interest that is assumed to be attached to every loan.  It is presumed by the NCAA that the institution has educated their student-athletes about these issues and monitors them appropriately through their compliance office.

2) Service Benefit - To handle a legal issue, a student-athlete obviously needs legal representation.  However, the NCAA expects that representation to be paid for, in full, by the student-athlete.  If you read through the OAC Message Board over the past week or so, you've heard two different attorneys named that were considered of excellent caliber that may have had connections to the school directly or indirectly and that have represented or are currently representing the student-athlete.  In fact, one of those attorneys was named by the school as a contact person during the initial week of the Ohio issues experienced, despite that attorney denying he represented the student-athlete.  Either way, the NCAA does not allow an attorney to provide pro bono or reduced-cost services to a student-athlete of an institution if the attorney wouldn't provide the same services at the same price to any student of that institution.  The problem here is that there is a likelihood that an out-of-state student was introduced to attorneys based on the attorneys' connections to the school in the first place (making them likely boosters, under the NCAA definition).  And as such, there is an onus on the school to ensure that there is not an improper benefit regarding services provided.  Again, the student-athlete's issues provide an extra layer of headache for the school because of the oversight expected by the NCAA, especially when it appears a "dream team" is representing them.

3) Unequal Treatment - In the same light, a school cannot treat a student-athlete differently in terms of punishments or penalties compared to other students at-large on the campus.  For instance, if the school has a policy to suspend a student who they discover has a felony charge pending against them until resolution of that charge, but they do not enforce that policy for a student-athlete, the school could be accused of providing unequal treatment for the student-athlete.  It is incumbent on the compliance office of the school to determine what the normal response to something like that would be and to ensure it is consistently applied in the student-athlete's case.

Now, as Merle would say about UMHB, I am sure the other school, with their history of existence and their administration's long institutional knowledge, has done their best to ensure the student-athlete has not accepted an improper financial or service benefit and is not receiving unequal treatment related to the issues encountered.  But, you can see things here that you might not instantly consider as impermissible benefits related to a student-athlete that could bite a school, program, and/or coach in the backside.  Again, though, everyone from the player, to the coaching staff, to the athletics department administration, to the school itself is presumed to know these rules.  When a transgression occurs and is reported/discovered, they all can be implicated, even if they don't have direct knowledge.  Ignorance is not bliss in the NCAA's eyes, and that goes for all schools no matter how unexpected certain issues could be.  Nobody should ever throw stones in these situations because of how many things that can go wrong everyday inside a program, no matter how well-intentioned the school may be.

[(509)Rat]

If UNC can commit blatant academic fraud and go essentially unpunished, I think UMHB is gonna be just fine. Hopefully they don't lose any scholarships...