FB: American Southwest Conference

[bleedpurple]

[quote author=UMHB03 link=topic=3803.msg1900909#msg1900909 date=154198170

I'm not concerned with the history, I'm concerned with the quality of the teams. Nothing that I've seen, either by watching the teams, or looking at the scores, would suggest that either team is noticeably better than the other. And none of that is even relevant since MU is not playing them in the FIRTS ROUND. MU gets their annual pair of cupcakes before they face any real competition, while UMHB has been saddled with a murderers row right out or the gate by the unscrupulous NCAA.

I haven't said a damn word about HSU vs. John Carroll.

YOU started out by saying that UMHB's game against HSU in the playoffs would be tougher than Mount's game vs. JCU.  I responded that based on recent history your argument appears to be fallacious.

Then YOU went insane.
[/quote]

There are kids that read this board and I think we can discuss sports without  profane references. 

[Ralph Turner]

I think this because it has been stated in multiple posts and podcasts that previous year's results are looked at when seeding teams in the tourney. I think it's logical to think this. It's sorta like the judge says, "Disregard that and strike it from the record" after something has been said. Everyone still remembers and knows about it. It affects the thought process.

Previous year's tournament results applies only to undefeated teams and only for seeding purposes, not selection.  This year's chair has said they didn't really use that provision at all when seeding teams in this bracket. 

HSU is playing at UMHB on Saturday because the NCAA didn't want to sign off on two extra flights to keep them apart for one round.  It really isn't more complicated than that.

Respectfully Wally,
HSU to Whitworth 1 flight
CMS to UMHB 1 flight

HSU/Whitworth back to UMHB... Maybe 60 / 40 chance of a flight.

2.6 flights


HSU to UMHB 0 flights
CMS to Whitworth 1 flight

Berry/Maryville to UMHB/HSU 2nd round 1 flight
CMS / Whitworth  to opponent 2nd round 1 flight.

3 flights, guaranteed

The 1st round bean counter argument fails.

This is so right.

Well, it's not actually.  There's another half to this region that needs to be considered. 

UMHB/HSU - 0 flights
Berry/Maryville - 0 flights
this pod will have a flight in round 2, so we've got 1 flight now.  on the other side:

SJU/MLC - 0 flight
Whitworth/CMS - 1 flight (2 total)
this pod will have a flight in the 2nd round (3 total)

Now whoever wins these pods will have to fly for the regional final - 4 total flights, all guaranteed through the region. 

So let's do it if we make the UMHB/CMS vs. HSU/Whitworth pod:
UMHB/CMS - 1
HSU/Whitworth - 1
2nd round gets this pod a flight if Whitworth advances, no flight if HSU advances.  So we have 2 guaranteed flights, maybe a third.  Other half:
SJU/MLC - 0
Berry/Maryville - 0
the 2nd round here is promised a flight (3) and whoever advances from here will be a flight away from whoever advances from the top, so we get a guaranteed flight for the regional final (4).  Still the four guaranteed flights, plus a toss up in Spokane to see if we get a fifth.  They chose not to gamble on that fifth flight in this region.

My bracket would have had

HSU at Whitworth
CMS at UMHB

Maryville at Berry
W&J at Centre

I will go with the 2.6 flight odds that mentioned above.

Centre can bus to Berry or Maryville.
If home teams prevail, we do not have a flight in the Berry pod.

Surely there are enough schools in the Midwest to fill a SJU/UWW bracket without a flight.

Yes it is a South Region  bracket, but the ASC has never played Centre Maryville or Berry in a post season contest.

[Toby Taff]

As a solution to the Island problem I propose that in years where the island issue rears its head and a conference rematch in the first round occurs, all conferences with multiple teams in the tournament either play in the first round and the brackets be built accordngly from there, or there are NO conference rematches in round 1. As stated many times the far west and western portions of the south are really the only areas hard to keep in proximity, so making everyone play their rematch round 1 shouldn't be a problem for creating low/no flight brackets

[Kelly Boggs]

Excellent suggestion, Toby!

FYI and FWIW: "It wouldn't matter if we were playing the Dallas Cowboys in a cow pasture, we're in the playoffs and excited about it," said former Louisiana College coach Dennis Dunn commenting on Pineville High School qualifying for the Louisiana High School state playoffs (Dunn is now the head coach at Pineville).

[Frank Rossi]

As a solution to the Island problem I propose that in years where the island issue rears its head and a conference rematch in the first round occurs, all conferences with multiple teams in the tournament either play in the first round and the brackets be built accordngly from there, or there are NO conference rematches in round 1. As stated many times the far west and western portions of the south are really the only areas hard to keep in proximity, so making everyone play their rematch round 1 shouldn't be a problem for creating low/no flight brackets

That was the rule in the Old Testament.  In the New Testament, it became "turn the other matchup." 😉

[Ralph Turner]

+1! Toby

[trickytroy32]

Edward, your right Mt. Union(1seed) is facing a cupcake team(7/8 seed) not John Carroll(3/4 seed)in the first round. UMHB(1seed) is facing HSU(3/4 seed) in the first round. Thanks for proving my point. Anyways, it's playoff time and enough of bracket talk. My game prediction for the game unfortunately is UMHB 27 HSU 14( closest game UMHB has in the playoffs until Stagg Bowl)

[MUC57]

As a solution to the Island problem I propose that in years where the island issue rears its head and a conference rematch in the first round occurs, all conferences with multiple teams in the tournament either play in the first round and the brackets be built accordngly from there, or there are NO conference rematches in round 1. As stated many times the far west and western portions of the south are really the only areas hard to keep in proximity, so making everyone play their rematch round 1 shouldn't be a problem for creating low/no flight brackets

That was the rule in the Old Testament.  In the New Testament, it became "turn the other matchup." 😉

I personally would never argue with a biblical scholar! But I like it!

[wally_wabash]

As a solution to the Island problem I propose that in years where the island issue rears its head and a conference rematch in the first round occurs, all conferences with multiple teams in the tournament either play in the first round and the brackets be built accordngly from there, or there are NO conference rematches in round 1. As stated many times the far west and western portions of the south are really the only areas hard to keep in proximity, so making everyone play their rematch round 1 shouldn't be a problem for creating low/no flight brackets

That doesn't solve the island problem, it just spreads the problem into areas and onto teams that aren't geographically isolated.  The handbook says that these kinds of rematches are to be avoided except when geographic proximity leaves them with no other choice. 

[Toby Taff]

As a solution to the Island problem I propose that in years where the island issue rears its head and a conference rematch in the first round occurs, all conferences with multiple teams in the tournament either play in the first round and the brackets be built accordngly from there, or there are NO conference rematches in round 1. As stated many times the far west and western portions of the south are really the only areas hard to keep in proximity, so making everyone play their rematch round 1 shouldn't be a problem for creating low/no flight brackets

That doesn't solve the island problem, it just spreads the problem into areas and onto teams that aren't geographically isolated.  The handbook says that these kinds of rematches are to be avoided except when geographic proximity leaves them with no other choice.

I get that. I'm saying if geographic proximity is a problem, it should be a problem for everyone. Because what has happened and continues to happen is that Island schools are punished for something they cannot control. One can say that it isn't punishment, but you have the #2 team in the tourney playing #3 in it's region in round 1 when #s 3&4 are playing a team that is unrated and a team that is #8 in it's region. Instead, if there is a conference match up, pit them against each other in round one and be done with it. There will never be a true, properly power matched bracket with the current set up. I say accept that and clear out rematches at the start.

As a solution to the Island problem I propose that in years where the island issue rears its head and a conference rematch in the first round occurs, all conferences with multiple teams in the tournament either play in the first round and the brackets be built accordngly from there, or there are NO conference rematches in round 1. As stated many times the far west and western portions of the south are really the only areas hard to keep in proximity, so making everyone play their rematch round 1 shouldn't be a problem for creating low/no flight brackets

That was the rule in the Old Testament.  In the New Testament, it became "turn the other matchup." 😉

I personally would never argue with a biblical scholar! But I like it!

To whom are you referring as a biblical scholar? There are several on the board, so some clarity would help.

[wally_wabash]

My bracket would have had

HSU at Whitworth
CMS at UMHB

Maryville at Berry
W&J at Centre

I will go with the 2.6 flight odds that mentioned above.

Centre can bus to Berry or Maryville.
If home teams prevail, we do not have a flight in the Berry pod.

Surely there are enough schools in the Midwest to fill a SJU/UWW bracket without a flight.

Yes it is a South Region  bracket, but the ASC has never played Centre Maryville or Berry in a post season contest.

I played around with this some.  Your South region bracket is pretty good, but still may include up to 5 flights and has two guaranteed first round flights when the bracket can get away with having just one.  There's no way to "fix" this as long as the organization is holding firm on operating with the fewest first round flights possible. 

Your bracket might get away with three flights.  Unless Whitworth and W&J win, which are both very possible outcomes, and then you get five.  They just aren't going to gamble with these flights that way this year. 

Not that anybody in this forum cares about the plights of the other quadrants, but without redoing the pairings, I made this work by shuffling SJU/MLC into the Bethel/Wartburg pod.  That displaces North Central/Hanover which I moved over to the DelVal/Muhlenberg spot to create a NCC pod with JCU.  DelVal/Muhlenberg then got moved to the empty spot where Centre/W&J was.   That actually came together a bit cleaner than I thought it would.  It gets expensive if Randolph Macon wins their game, but we're not too concerned with flights past round 1, right?  (narrator voice: we are concerned about flights past round 1)

[jamtod]

I get that. I'm saying if geographic proximity is a problem, it should be a problem for everyone. Because what has happened and continues to happen is that Island schools are punished for something they cannot control. One can say that it isn't punishment, but you have the #2 team in the tourney playing #3 in it's region in round 1 when #s 3&4 are playing a team that is unrated and a team that is #8 in it's region. Instead, if there is a conference match up, pit them against each other in round one and be done with it. There will never be a true, properly power matched bracket with the current set up. I say accept that and clear out rematches at the start.

I think the real solution to this is to beat your conference opponents by such a devastating margin that you crush their will to live, so they crumble and don't even make the playoffs.

Definitely not saying this based on what happened to my alma mater, no sir.

[wally_wabash]

As a solution to the Island problem I propose that in years where the island issue rears its head and a conference rematch in the first round occurs, all conferences with multiple teams in the tournament either play in the first round and the brackets be built accordngly from there, or there are NO conference rematches in round 1. As stated many times the far west and western portions of the south are really the only areas hard to keep in proximity, so making everyone play their rematch round 1 shouldn't be a problem for creating low/no flight brackets

That doesn't solve the island problem, it just spreads the problem into areas and onto teams that aren't geographically isolated.  The handbook says that these kinds of rematches are to be avoided except when geographic proximity leaves them with no other choice.

I get that. I'm saying if geographic proximity is a problem, it should be a problem for everyone. Because what has happened and continues to happen is that Island schools are punished for something they cannot control. One can say that it isn't punishment, but you have the #2 team in the tourney playing #3 in it's region in round 1 when #s 3&4 are playing a team that is unrated and a team that is #8 in it's region. Instead, if there is a conference match up, pit them against each other in round one and be done with it. There will never be a true, properly power matched bracket with the current set up. I say accept that and clear out rematches at the start.

One way to avoid the ASC rematch problem is to stop inviting a second ASC team to the tournament.  That's every bit as silly and unfair as requiring first round rematches, but it gets rid of the cruelty done to these teams when they have to play each other in the first round of a national championship tournament. 

[Frank Rossi]

There you have it... Today's headline:

"Wally Wabash tells American Southwest Conference to stop taking Pool C bids as biblical scholars debate flight plagues"

Film at 11.

[Toby Taff]

As a solution to the Island problem I propose that in years where the island issue rears its head and a conference rematch in the first round occurs, all conferences with multiple teams in the tournament either play in the first round and the brackets be built accordngly from there, or there are NO conference rematches in round 1. As stated many times the far west and western portions of the south are really the only areas hard to keep in proximity, so making everyone play their rematch round 1 shouldn't be a problem for creating low/no flight brackets

That doesn't solve the island problem, it just spreads the problem into areas and onto teams that aren't geographically isolated.  The handbook says that these kinds of rematches are to be avoided except when geographic proximity leaves them with no other choice.

I get that. I'm saying if geographic proximity is a problem, it should be a problem for everyone. Because what has happened and continues to happen is that Island schools are punished for something they cannot control. One can say that it isn't punishment, but you have the #2 team in the tourney playing #3 in it's region in round 1 when #s 3&4 are playing a team that is unrated and a team that is #8 in it's region. Instead, if there is a conference match up, pit them against each other in round one and be done with it. There will never be a true, properly power matched bracket with the current set up. I say accept that and clear out rematches at the start.

One way to avoid the ASC rematch problem is to stop inviting a second ASC team to the tournament.  That's every bit as silly and unfair as requiring first round rematches, but it gets rid of the cruelty done to these teams when they have to play each other in the first round of a national championship tournament.

I actually have no beef with playing HSU in the first round. My issue is that because of the island situation most of the time the teams in the far west/southwestern portion of the bracket have a more difficult task to make the quarters. In this case (assuming chalk)
UMHB: S3, S4, W2,W1
UWW : NR, N4, N2, S1
UMU : NR, S5, N3, E1
Brock: E8, E3, S2 or E2, N1

it's not just the match up quality either? It's the attrition that happens when you have to play highly more highly ranked team. UMHB will be playing starters the whole game increasing their chance of injury. UWW, UMU,and Brockport will probably have 2nd team guys in early 2nd half and can protect their 1's for the next week. I realize my proposal is a little absurd, but it does bring the playing field more level. If UMU was playing John Carrol this week these brackets look a lot different down the road.