FB: American Southwest Conference

[Etchglow]

I agree with HSUCowboy2015 on the statement that UMHB is not 30 points better than us. I'm new to the forum but have always watched, and kept up with it from a distance for years now. This game took a big lick to our pride but is 100% on us. UMHB has always been one of the best teams I've ever witnessed at riding momentum and capitalizing on others errors. They don't waste opportunities when they are given a gift from the opposing team, and that's what great teams do. With that being said if we eliminate the int, two fb TD's, and the kick return to the 3 it's a much different game. But as the old saying goes if my aunt had a pair she'd be my uncle. At the end of the day those aren't normal errors for the cowboys. They beat a lot of folks because of their discipline. Which by the way, the question on TDE actually stands for Toughness, Discipline, and Effort. We had multiple shots to score and got up quicker on them than Whitewater could. I'm confident we have one of the best defenses in the nation if we get a better pass rush. I still believe in this team and think they can play with the best of D3. I'm hopeful we get another chance in the playoffs, but I won't feel sorry for us if they don't let us this year. This one is on us!

I will agree with you that if this game is played with the same 2 teams 10 times, this is likely the only scenario where UMHB wins by 30. HSU has a good squad and can likely play close with most of the top d3 schools, but don't say HSU lost this game and discredit UMHB. I wanted this game to go into shootout mode. UMHB's offense is crazy potent and I honestly thought HSU's best chance was to grind it out like UWW did. The Int was a great read and reaction by the db. The only reason it wasn't a pick 6 is Kevi Evans is ridiculously fast. Watch the two fumbles returned One was just straight ripped out of Garcias hands. He was trying to make a play and the LB ripped the ball away. Th qb lost the ball on a good hit. Those were mistakes forced by good defense.  KJ Miller is a return machine, the mistake was kicking it to him. In the second half, HSU had 18 net yards. If that's on HSU they quit, in which case all they would ever do is get close in games against big time programs because they lack heart. I don't think that's the case. I think UMHB's defense actually figured it out and made the right adjustments while the offense went to work grinding clock. As evidence I'd point out Evans didn't get loose after the 2nd quarter and the dbs made a few nice plays on balls thrown his way after the 74 yd td. HSU wasn't helped by trying to run, run , run and chewing up clock. So did HSU lose the game, no. They didn't do themselves any favors, but they got beat by a really good team that made good adjustments.

If this game was played 10 times, my guess is most games would be within 10-15 points, but I also think that HSU wouldn't win more than 2, and against this offense that might be generous.

Well said Toby. I feel there are a lot of people saying/implying that HSU quit and that takes a lot away from the UMHB players and coaches who managed to make adjustments on defense.

[crufootball]

I agree with HSUCowboy2015 on the statement that UMHB is not 30 points better than us. I'm new to the forum but have always watched, and kept up with it from a distance for years now. This game took a big lick to our pride but is 100% on us. UMHB has always been one of the best teams I've ever witnessed at riding momentum and capitalizing on others errors. They don't waste opportunities when they are given a gift from the opposing team, and that's what great teams do. With that being said if we eliminate the int, two fb TD's, and the kick return to the 3 it's a much different game. But as the old saying goes if my aunt had a pair she'd be my uncle. At the end of the day those aren't normal errors for the cowboys. They beat a lot of folks because of their discipline. Which by the way, the question on TDE actually stands for Toughness, Discipline, and Effort. We had multiple shots to score and got up quicker on them than Whitewater could. I'm confident we have one of the best defenses in the nation if we get a better pass rush. I still believe in this team and think they can play with the best of D3. I'm hopeful we get another chance in the playoffs, but I won't feel sorry for us if they don't let us this year. This one is on us!

I will agree with you that if this game is played with the same 2 teams 10 times, this is likely the only scenario where UMHB wins by 30. HSU has a good squad and can likely play close with most of the top d3 schools, but don't say HSU lost this game and discredit UMHB. I wanted this game to go into shootout mode. UMHB's offense is crazy potent and I honestly thought HSU's best chance was to grind it out like UWW did. The Int was a great read and reaction by the db. The only reason it wasn't a pick 6 is Kevi Evans is ridiculously fast. Watch the two fumbles returned One was just straight ripped out of Garcias hands. He was trying to make a play and the LB ripped the ball away. Th qb lost the ball on a good hit. Those were mistakes forced by good defense.  KJ Miller is a return machine, the mistake was kicking it to him. In the second half, HSU had 18 net yards. If that's on HSU they quit, in which case all they would ever do is get close in games against big time programs because they lack heart. I don't think that's the case. I think UMHB's defense actually figured it out and made the right adjustments while the offense went to work grinding clock. As evidence I'd point out Evans didn't get loose after the 2nd quarter and the dbs made a few nice plays on balls thrown his way after the 74 yd td. HSU wasn't helped by trying to run, run , run and chewing up clock. So did HSU lose the game, no. They didn't do themselves any favors, but they got beat by a really good team that made good adjustments.

If this game was played 10 times, my guess is most games would be within 10-15 points, but I also think that HSU wouldn't win more than 2, and against this offense that might be generous.

One thing that I have always felt that UMHB does not get enough credit for and a huge reason IMO we have always found a way to get past HSU is turnovers.

Counting last Saturday and going back to the playoff game in 2004, UMHB and HSU have played 22 times and the turnover ratio is a plus 27 in favor of UMHB. UMHB won the turnover battle 14 times and the teams were even 5 times, so 19 out of 22 times it either helped the Cru or at least didn't hurt them.

Over the years there have been numerous times IMO that HSU was even or better than UMHB but the Cowboys made the mistakes and lost the game. 

[Cowboy2]

I agree with HSUCowboy2015 on the statement that UMHB is not 30 points better than us. I'm new to the forum but have always watched, and kept up with it from a distance for years now. This game took a big lick to our pride but is 100% on us. UMHB has always been one of the best teams I've ever witnessed at riding momentum and capitalizing on others errors. They don't waste opportunities when they are given a gift from the opposing team, and that's what great teams do. With that being said if we eliminate the int, two fb TD's, and the kick return to the 3 it's a much different game. But as the old saying goes if my aunt had a pair she'd be my uncle. At the end of the day those aren't normal errors for the cowboys. They beat a lot of folks because of their discipline. Which by the way, the question on TDE actually stands for Toughness, Discipline, and Effort. We had multiple shots to score and got up quicker on them than Whitewater could. I'm confident we have one of the best defenses in the nation if we get a better pass rush. I still believe in this team and think they can play with the best of D3. I'm hopeful we get another chance in the playoffs, but I won't feel sorry for us if they don't let us this year. This one is on us!

I will agree with you that if this game is played with the same 2 teams 10 times, this is likely the only scenario where UMHB wins by 30. HSU has a good squad and can likely play close with most of the top d3 schools, but don't say HSU lost this game and discredit UMHB. I wanted this game to go into shootout mode. UMHB's offense is crazy potent and I honestly thought HSU's best chance was to grind it out like UWW did. The Int was a great read and reaction by the db. The only reason it wasn't a pick 6 is Kevi Evans is ridiculously fast. Watch the two fumbles returned One was just straight ripped out of Garcias hands. He was trying to make a play and the LB ripped the ball away. Th qb lost the ball on a good hit. Those were mistakes forced by good defense.  KJ Miller is a return machine, the mistake was kicking it to him. In the second half, HSU had 18 net yards. If that's on HSU they quit, in which case all they would ever do is get close in games against big time programs because they lack heart. I don't think that's the case. I think UMHB's defense actually figured it out and made the right adjustments while the offense went to work grinding clock. As evidence I'd point out Evans didn't get loose after the 2nd quarter and the dbs made a few nice plays on balls thrown his way after the 74 yd td. HSU wasn't helped by trying to run, run , run and chewing up clock. So did HSU lose the game, no. They didn't do themselves any favors, but they got beat by a really good team that made good adjustments.

If this game was played 10 times, my guess is most games would be within 10-15 points, but I also think that HSU wouldn't win more than 2, and against this offense that might be generous.

I think you both make valid points. I see how HSU gave it away and how UMHB flat beat them. Only thing that matters is the end result - "W."

I will say, the holding on Evans' other long TD, hurt from the fact that was the only play that seemed to work....and the defense saw it one extra time. Granted they went and scored the 74 yd TD after that, but that was one extra time, again, he got behind the defense that couldn't use the points by having a holding penalty/negated. UMHB  eventually stacked a safety over him and he was shut down. In my opinion, as I stated, he was the X factor. He was taking over the game up to that point. He reminded me of a lot like.......KJ Miller, who looking back at the of the sequence of events, saved UMHB on his almost KR TD. Seemed like they let HSU know they were there to stay. Prior to that HSU had
all the momentum. Stayed in by kicking FGs - smart to take points.

To me, the strip on the first fumble looked like it could have been overturned. At first I thought his momentum was stopped. However, the replay shows he was fighting for extra yards and kind of escaped backwards and then fumbled..... But I will say after the last fumble UMHB returned, the turnover TD energized them. UMHB  looked like a different defense. HSU looked like they had a bad dream from last year and couldn't get to half to go regroup fast enough.

It's hard to say who would win out of 10 games. Most teams don't have an answer on a 21 pt swing/run. HSU became one dimensional. It's easy to play defense when you can back off and more so know what is coming....especially when the offense keeps scoring.

I will say this - Both teams are elite. I could see each team blowing the other out once, maybe twice, due to errors or momentum changes. I could see half a dozen close 1 score games. In 10 games it's hard to say who will win because each year is different. Different players and coaches. CRU won the one that mattered.

[Kelly Boggs]

"If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas." Darrell Royal

[crufootball]

I will say this - Both teams are elite. I could see each team blowing the other out once, maybe twice, due to errors or momentum changes. I could see half a dozen close 1 score games. In 10 games it's hard to say who will win because each year is different. Different players and coaches. CRU won the one that mattered.

I will start by saying I am a person that has defended HSU over the years as not getting a fair shot at proving what they really are but I am not sure we can call them elite. You say in 10 games it's hard to say who will win because each year is different but in this case we do have a history to look back to. As I mentioned earlier this isn't the first year that HSU had a legit shot at winning this game but they either committed the turnovers or UMHB forced their turnovers (your pick) and that led to HSU losing the game. Now they should win out and then might get a shot at revenge over UMHB and I would be anxious watching the game but right now at least in my opinion HSU is very very good and UMHB is elite.

[Ron Boerger]

I will say this - Both teams are elite. I could see each team blowing the other out once, maybe twice, due to errors or momentum changes. I could see half a dozen close 1 score games. In 10 games it's hard to say who will win because each year is different. Different players and coaches. CRU won the one that mattered.

I will start by saying I am a person that has defended HSU over the years as not getting a fair shot at proving what they really are but I am not sure we can call them elite. You say in 10 games it's hard to say who will win because each year is different but in this case we do have a history to look back to. As I mentioned earlier this isn't the first year that HSU had a legit shot at winning this game but they either committed the turnovers or UMHB forced their turnovers (your pick) and that led to HSU losing the game. Now they should win out and then might get a shot at revenge over UMHB and I would be anxious watching the game but right now at least in my opinion HSU is very very good and UMHB is elite.

As compared to the body of D3 both are elite.  But for whatever reason (better talent/coaching/willpower/skill/being in HSU's heads or combination of any or all), when they play each other UMHB is eliter.   

[Pat Coleman]

This all depends on what the definition of elite is. But it's hard to call HSU elite, in my mind.

[bleedpurple]

"If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas." Darrell Royal

Losing by 30 requires a whole lot of candy and nuts to make a case!

[Cowboy2]

This all depends on what the definition of elite is. But it's hard to call HSU elite, in my mind.

I was agreeing with both sides on how the game played out. I can see where both fanbases would view that their team either did everything to win or did enough to lose again.

As far as elite, yes in my opinion both teams are elite. When programs have sustained winning, mind you that they're in the same conference (one team must always have one loss), over a period of 2-2.5 decades, and consistently end their season in the top tier of D3, I would say that qualifies as elite. Most programs would be happy to land in the top 25 once in a blue purple moon.

To annually remain in the top 5% of the league for the given timeframe, I'd consider that elite. Do they have the playoffs success of UMHB? No. Do they have winning percentage of the top teams? Yes. The D3FB Voters seem to think so at least. It's been discussed many times on the podcast how difficult it is to be in the top 25, let alone 10, in D3 in comparison to D1  However, Not too many teams still land in the top 10-15 after the playoffs, in most years. HSU does without the playoff resume. I see your argument. Not making excuses, to be the man you have beat the man.

[Cowboy2]

I will say this - Both teams are elite. I could see each team blowing the other out once, maybe twice, due to errors or momentum changes. I could see half a dozen close 1 score games. In 10 games it's hard to say who will win because each year is different. Different players and coaches. CRU won the one that mattered.

I will start by saying I am a person that has defended HSU over the years as not getting a fair shot at proving what they really are but I am not sure we can call them elite. You say in 10 games it's hard to say who will win because each year is different but in this case we do have a history to look back to. As I mentioned earlier this isn't the first year that HSU had a legit shot at winning this game but they either committed the turnovers or UMHB forced their turnovers (your pick) and that led to HSU losing the game. Now they should win out and then might get a shot at revenge over UMHB and I would be anxious watching the game but right now at least in my opinion HSU is very very good and UMHB is elite.

As compared to the body of D3 both are elite.  But for whatever reason (better talent/coaching/willpower/skill/being in HSU's heads or combination of any or all), when they play each other UMHB is eliter.   

I agree. Also, I mentioned earlier that not many teams have an answer or can respond to a 3TD swing. However, in recent history, UMHB be did just that in last years game when rallying down by 21 in the second half.

I also find it comical that HSU is always hovering in that 4/5-7/8 ranking-conversation and then when the Cowboys lose to the CRU, the jury is still out. Happens all the time to Wheaton, JC, and UW La Crosse....but I guess the R3 teams don't have the respect of some of the other region's conferences with "Elite" programs.

[wally_wabash]

I also find it comical that HSU is always hovering in that 4/5-7/8 ranking-conversation and then when the Cowboys lose to the CRU, the jury is still out. Happens all the time to Wheaton, JC, and UW La Crosse....but I guess the R3 teams don't have the respect of some of the other region's conferences with "Elite" programs.

Not sure I understand.  HSU just lost by 30 and are still ranked ahead of Wheaton and John Carroll, no? 

[Cowboy2]

I also find it comical that HSU is always hovering in that 4/5-7/8 ranking-conversation and then when the Cowboys lose to the CRU, the jury is still out. Happens all the time to Wheaton, JC, and UW La Crosse....but I guess the R3 teams don't have the respect of some of the other region's conferences with "Elite" programs.

Not sure I understand.  HSU just lost by 30 and are still ranked ahead of Wheaton and John Carroll, no?

So to piggy back of what I said, the jury is still out. I said they're elite in the grand scheme of ranking teams. Maybe I should have used the word program I lieu of this years team...or just stayed out of the discussion.

Yes, they got flat out spanked by UMHB. We won't know how they would do against the rest of the National competition because there's a good chance they'll miss the playoffs, again. I also view Wheaton as an elite team and historically JC in that same tier. Maybe there's only 3-4 elite teams consistently. I'll own it, but if people say that they're not one of the elite teams in D3, what defines that. Multiple stagg bowls? The problem is, everyone assumes HSU would do well if UMHB wasn't top tog in the ASC. Nothing validates that. They could go 0-1 with a first round exit each year, but they're still viewed a contender in that conversation...just can't get over the hump.

So to play devils advocate, If they're not one of the elite teams, why do they consistently get ranked, heck even in the fan polls, preseason standings, and end of season polls in the top 10 or so? That's the top 4-5% of a league of 240 programs.... Am I missing something?

[IC798891]

As much of a cop out answer this is — I really think there are two levels of elite.

The collective that wins championships are obviously one of the levels.

And then there's the level that like Washington and Jefferson has been at for 40 years now. No rings, a two close but no cigar seasons, lots of really good ones, and no bad ones.

I sort of feel like that's H-S, with the obvious changes to how you qualify for the playoffs today. No, until they actually beat UMHB we probably won't know, but that's my gut.

If we filter everything through the lens of titles, we're going to have a really warped view of things

[Ron Boerger]

Put HSU in at least half of the other conferences, they would win them, get to the playoffs, and win a playoff game or two most seasons.  That combined with the voters keeping them in the top ten even after a blowout loss to UMHB says to me they're "elite".   The only way you can say otherwise is if your definition of elite are those few teams who can reliably be Final Four teams most years, and while that is a reasonable distinction, I'm not quite that exclusive.  Top 10ish out of 240 teams is "elite" to me. 

[crufootball]

Put HSU in at least half of the other conferences, they would win them, get to the playoffs, and win a playoff game or two most seasons.  That combined with the voters keeping them in the top ten even after a blowout loss to UMHB says to me they're "elite".   The only way you can say otherwise is if your definition of elite are those few teams who can reliably be Final Four teams most years, and while that is a reasonable distinction, I'm not quite that exclusive.  Top 10ish out of 240 teams is "elite" to me.

It is unfortunate that this year if Trinity win the SAA again and HSU gets in, there is almost no chance they don't face each other in the first round. Unfortunate because Trinity would deserve an easier first round opponent and it would be another year that in order to prove their worth HSU would have to beat a Top 5ish team in the country just to get into the second round.   

In terms of elite vs very good, I would put HSU in the very good tier. A long time ago one of the regular posters put together a few paragraphs about the different tiers of D3 which I have always thought about when looking at the playoffs. Right now is HSU better than 95% of D3, I think so, but there still is another tier above them that they need to crash through in order to get there.