FB: American Southwest Conference

[TLU02SA]

What is the benefit of moving to D2?
Increased cost for (roughly) the same exposure as D3?

It seems like the number of D2 football schools is dwindling because they are either making the jump to FCS for the big(ger) money, or dropping to D3 to eliminate the expense of athletic scholarships. At least that's the view from the upper midwest.

The only alternative to D2, it appears, would be staying in a 4-team (non-AQ) conference where each school would have to find 7 non-conference football opponents every year. A move to D2 would be one of necessity rather than outright benefit. Teams in our neck of the woods do not have as many options as schools in most other parts of the country. The only other conferences that would be geographically viable for the four schools in question would be the SAC or the SCAC, and neither of those are options due to the fact that most of the programs in those conferences can't/won't compete with the likes of UMHB and Hardin-Simmons or the fact that they don't like the Christian values of the Baptist schools.... or possibly both.

The SCAC tried the four-team thing for a few years and played a double-round robin schedule due to the difficulty lining up OOC games.  Nobody was terribly happy about the result.  I have a "SCAC LAST GAME" challenge coin somewhere as a result.

There are also (perceived or actual) differences in academic standards which can contribute to a decision to change conference affiliations.

I was going to mention that the SCAC tried this and it was not a great situation. Initially, TLU's schedule was 3 conference games (Trinity, SW, Austin) and then they played an ASC schedule. It felt like TLU was in two conferences. Then the SCAC tried the home-and-away conference scheduling.  Outside of the NFL with their 17 week season, playing the same team twice (let alone three teams) during a regular season is not a good schedule.  The variety of opponents and getting one shot is part of what makes college football fun.

[Pat Coleman]

A number of conferences have restrictions on transferring in conference. In the OAC, you can transfer, but must sit out a year. In the WIAC, you can transfer, but after your sophomore year or later you must sit out a year. There are probably others that I'm forgetting.

[UMHB03]

What is the benefit of moving to D2?
Increased cost for (roughly) the same exposure as D3?

It seems like the number of D2 football schools is dwindling because they are either making the jump to FCS for the big(ger) money, or dropping to D3 to eliminate the expense of athletic scholarships. At least that's the view from the upper midwest.

The only alternative to D2, it appears, would be staying in a 4-team (non-AQ) conference where each school would have to find 7 non-conference football opponents every year. A move to D2 would be one of necessity rather than outright benefit. Teams in our neck of the woods do not have as many options as schools in most other parts of the country. The only other conferences that would be geographically viable for the four schools in question would be the SAC or the SCAC, and neither of those are options due to the fact that most of the programs in those conferences can't/won't compete with the likes of UMHB and Hardin-Simmons or the fact that they don't like the Christian values of the Baptist schools.... or possibly both.

The SCAC tried the four-team thing for a few years and played a double-round robin schedule due to the difficulty lining up OOC games.  Nobody was terribly happy about the result.  I have a "SCAC LAST GAME" challenge coin somewhere as a result.

There are also (perceived or actual) differences in academic standards which can contribute to a decision to change conference affiliations.

The double round robin schedule definitely doesn't sound ideal. Plus the non-AQ status should make remaining in a four (football) school conference a nonstarter.

I was sort of rolling the "academic standards" issue into the "opposition to Christian education issue". I think the two issues are intertwined. After all, I don't see where any of the SCAC schools are significantly better academically than the Baptist Four.

[jknezek]

What is the benefit of moving to D2?
Increased cost for (roughly) the same exposure as D3?

It seems like the number of D2 football schools is dwindling because they are either making the jump to FCS for the big(ger) money, or dropping to D3 to eliminate the expense of athletic scholarships. At least that's the view from the upper midwest.

The only alternative to D2, it appears, would be staying in a 4-team (non-AQ) conference where each school would have to find 7 non-conference football opponents every year. A move to D2 would be one of necessity rather than outright benefit. Teams in our neck of the woods do not have as many options as schools in most other parts of the country. The only other conferences that would be geographically viable for the four schools in question would be the SAC or the SCAC, and neither of those are options due to the fact that most of the programs in those conferences can't/won't compete with the likes of UMHB and Hardin-Simmons or the fact that they don't like the Christian values of the Baptist schools.... or possibly both.

The SCAC tried the four-team thing for a few years and played a double-round robin schedule due to the difficulty lining up OOC games.  Nobody was terribly happy about the result.  I have a "SCAC LAST GAME" challenge coin somewhere as a result.

There are also (perceived or actual) differences in academic standards which can contribute to a decision to change conference affiliations.

The double round robin schedule definitely doesn't sound ideal. Plus the non-AQ status should make remaining in a four (football) school conference a nonstarter.

I was sort of rolling the "academic standards" issue into the "opposition to Christian education issue". I think the two issues are intertwined. After all, I don't see where any of the SCAC schools are significantly better academically than the Baptist Four.

I'm not going to go too deep down this rabbit hole, but UMHB accepts 99.3% of the kids that apply. If you can (or someone you know is willing to) write a check and you can fog a mirror, UMHB is going to let you try college. That's not a bad thing if you don't take on much debt to do it or you make through to a degree and get a job using that degree. It gives tons of first generation college students a chance to go to college, and lots of kids who maybe didn't mature until a bit late still have chance to get a higher education. UMHB and schools like it fill a valuable spot as far as I'm concerned, again given the students pull through (about a 50% chance at UMHB, which is close to the national average).

However, with a few exceptions, the SCAC schools are more selective. TLU is about a 63% acceptance rate, Austin is in the 40s, Centenary is in the 60s, Colorado College is 14%, Lyon is in the 20s, U of the Ozarks 55.4%, U of St. Thomas is 75%. CTX is in the low 90s, Schreiner is right there with UMHB in the upper 90s.

And quite frankly, Austin and CC both are "significantly better academically than the Baptists Four" and it's not even close. I'd say Lyon and U of Ozarks are also academically on a different tier, though a lot closer than Austin and CC. Then TLU, Centenary, St. Thomas, CTX, Schriener.... yeah you've got a point as it's much more of a toss-up.

[Ron Boerger]

FWIW, the two schools leaving the SCAC for the SAA have broadly similar profiles to Austin:   Trinity accepts 31%, Southwestern 51% (per US News)

[jknezek]

FWIW, the two schools leaving the SCAC for the SAA have broadly similar profiles to Austin:   Trinity accepts 31%, Southwestern 51% (per US News)

Yeah. I wasn't going to include them because they are leaving.

And I'm not implying acceptance rate is everything. Sometimes it depends on the quality of your applicant pool. But it is one of those "prestige" measures that College Presidents like to point to in their peer groups. And UMHB's acceptance rate is about as unimpressive as it gets. Some of the other Baptist 4 are more like TLU in acceptance, and the general makeup of many of the schools and outcomes (loosely measured by incoming class averages and graduation rates) are pretty similar.

So do the schools leaving the ASC have an academic prestige pillar to stand on when heading to the SCAC? Well, it's complicated, but I'd say there is a small one thanks to a couple of the SCAC schools, but by no means is it uniform across the conference.

[crufootball]

FWIW, the two schools leaving the SCAC for the SAA have broadly similar profiles to Austin:   Trinity accepts 31%, Southwestern 51% (per US News)

Yeah. I wasn't going to include them because they are leaving.

And I'm not implying acceptance rate is everything. Sometimes it depends on the quality of your applicant pool. But it is one of those "prestige" measures that College Presidents like to point to in their peer groups. And UMHB's acceptance rate is about as unimpressive as it gets. Some of the other Baptist 4 are more like TLU in acceptance, and the general makeup of many of the schools and outcomes (loosely measured by incoming class averages and graduation rates) are pretty similar.

So do the schools leaving the ASC have an academic prestige pillar to stand on when heading to the SCAC? Well, it's complicated, but I'd say there is a small one thanks to a couple of the SCAC schools, but by no means is it uniform across the conference.

I was always willing to buy the academic prestige angle from the "old" SCAC but when 2 of your newest members don't seem to really fit the picture you lose me.

[UMHB03]

FWIW, the two schools leaving the SCAC for the SAA have broadly similar profiles to Austin:   Trinity accepts 31%, Southwestern 51% (per US News)

Yeah. I wasn't going to include them because they are leaving.

And I'm not implying acceptance rate is everything. Sometimes it depends on the quality of your applicant pool. But it is one of those "prestige" measures that College Presidents like to point to in their peer groups. And UMHB's acceptance rate is about as unimpressive as it gets. Some of the other Baptist 4 are more like TLU in acceptance, and the general makeup of many of the schools and outcomes (loosely measured by incoming class averages and graduation rates) are pretty similar.

So do the schools leaving the ASC have an academic prestige pillar to stand on when heading to the SCAC? Well, it's complicated, but I'd say there is a small one thanks to a couple of the SCAC schools, but by no means is it uniform across the conference.

I was always willing to buy the academic prestige angle from the "old" SCAC but when 2 of your newest members don't seem to really fit the picture you lose me.

Yeah, it doesn't seem to be an academic prestige issue. I tend to think it's more of a "we can't compete with UMHB and HSU" issue, as well as a "Christianity vs DEI" issue

[Pat Coleman]

FWIW, the two schools leaving the SCAC for the SAA have broadly similar profiles to Austin:   Trinity accepts 31%, Southwestern 51% (per US News)

Yeah. I wasn't going to include them because they are leaving.

And I'm not implying acceptance rate is everything. Sometimes it depends on the quality of your applicant pool. But it is one of those "prestige" measures that College Presidents like to point to in their peer groups. And UMHB's acceptance rate is about as unimpressive as it gets. Some of the other Baptist 4 are more like TLU in acceptance, and the general makeup of many of the schools and outcomes (loosely measured by incoming class averages and graduation rates) are pretty similar.

So do the schools leaving the ASC have an academic prestige pillar to stand on when heading to the SCAC? Well, it's complicated, but I'd say there is a small one thanks to a couple of the SCAC schools, but by no means is it uniform across the conference.

I was always willing to buy the academic prestige angle from the "old" SCAC but when 2 of your newest members don't seem to really fit the picture you lose me.

As I noted in our story on D3sports.com, there was no mention of academic prestige in the SCAC news release.

[Ron Boerger]

The d3football.com podcast dropped today talks about what might be next for the ASC (again) and covers some of the great games in Texas in the upcoming season (h/t to Riley Zayes who puts in an appearance).

[tigerguy]

What is the benefit of moving to D2?
Increased cost for (roughly) the same exposure as D3?

It seems like the number of D2 football schools is dwindling because they are either making the jump to FCS for the big(ger) money, or dropping to D3 to eliminate the expense of athletic scholarships. At least that's the view from the upper midwest.

The only alternative to D2, it appears, would be staying in a 4-team (non-AQ) conference where each school would have to find 7 non-conference football opponents every year. A move to D2 would be one of necessity rather than outright benefit. Teams in our neck of the woods do not have as many options as schools in most other parts of the country. The only other conferences that would be geographically viable for the four schools in question would be the SAC or the SCAC, and neither of those are options due to the fact that most of the programs in those conferences can't/won't compete with the likes of UMHB and Hardin-Simmons or the fact that they don't like the Christian values of the Baptist schools.... or possibly both.

Wasn't Wesley able to survive for many years as an independent and/or as a member of the ACFC, which only had a few teams? I was always surprised by the school's willingness/ability to pay for travel to find games. Obviously, they aren't around anymore, and were located in an area with more D3 schools, but they were able to sustain that for a number of years and were extremely competitive.

[Riley Zayas]

What is the benefit of moving to D2?
Increased cost for (roughly) the same exposure as D3?

It seems like the number of D2 football schools is dwindling because they are either making the jump to FCS for the big(ger) money, or dropping to D3 to eliminate the expense of athletic scholarships. At least that's the view from the upper midwest.

The only alternative to D2, it appears, would be staying in a 4-team (non-AQ) conference where each school would have to find 7 non-conference football opponents every year. A move to D2 would be one of necessity rather than outright benefit. Teams in our neck of the woods do not have as many options as schools in most other parts of the country. The only other conferences that would be geographically viable for the four schools in question would be the SAC or the SCAC, and neither of those are options due to the fact that most of the programs in those conferences can't/won't compete with the likes of UMHB and Hardin-Simmons or the fact that they don't like the Christian values of the Baptist schools.... or possibly both.

Wasn't Wesley able to survive for many years as an independent and/or as a member of the ACFC, which only had a few teams? I was always surprised by the school's willingness/ability to pay for travel to find games. Obviously, they aren't around anymore, and were located in an area with more D3 schools, but they were able to sustain that for a number of years and were extremely competitive.

Yes, they were an independent for 4 years from 2011-2014. Played a lot of non-D3 opponents though.

In my opinion, It would never work for the ASC. In large part due to the lack of available opponents. A 4-team ASC would struggle, even if you played round-robin twice (which I doubt anybody would vote for). Scheduling 3 non-conf games was near impossible for HSU this year...so to ask them to try to find 4 would be unfair...and to spend all that money on non-conference games when your league does not have an AQ, and is unlikely to regain an AQ in coming years, is pointless. They'd be playing for a Pool B every year. Personally, I don't believe that is an option those in the ASC are currently considering, though I could be wrong.

[wally_wabash]

What is the benefit of moving to D2?
Increased cost for (roughly) the same exposure as D3?

It seems like the number of D2 football schools is dwindling because they are either making the jump to FCS for the big(ger) money, or dropping to D3 to eliminate the expense of athletic scholarships. At least that's the view from the upper midwest.

The only alternative to D2, it appears, would be staying in a 4-team (non-AQ) conference where each school would have to find 7 non-conference football opponents every year. A move to D2 would be one of necessity rather than outright benefit. Teams in our neck of the woods do not have as many options as schools in most other parts of the country. The only other conferences that would be geographically viable for the four schools in question would be the SAC or the SCAC, and neither of those are options due to the fact that most of the programs in those conferences can't/won't compete with the likes of UMHB and Hardin-Simmons or the fact that they don't like the Christian values of the Baptist schools.... or possibly both.

Wasn't Wesley able to survive for many years as an independent and/or as a member of the ACFC, which only had a few teams? I was always surprised by the school's willingness/ability to pay for travel to find games. Obviously, they aren't around anymore, and were located in an area with more D3 schools, but they were able to sustain that for a number of years and were extremely competitive.

Yes, they were an independent for 4 years from 2011-2014. Played a lot of non-D3 opponents though.

In my opinion, It would never work for the ASC. In large part due to the lack of available opponents. A 4-team ASC would struggle, even if you played round-robin twice (which I doubt anybody would vote for). Scheduling 3 non-conf games was near impossible for HSU this year...so to ask them to try to find 4 would be unfair...and to spend all that money on non-conference games when your league does not have an AQ, and is unlikely to regain an AQ in coming years, is pointless. They'd be playing for a Pool B every year. Personally, I don't believe that is an option those in the ASC are currently considering, though I could be wrong.

Worth mentioning that when Wesley was in the independent abyss, there were enough non-AQ qualifying leagues that Pool B had a bid allocated to it.  If we're in a situation where the ASC four are the only non-AQ teams out there, that's not enough to allocate a bid to Pool B.  The ASC four would be in Pool C against league runners up that have built a pile of in-division primary criteria that the ASC teams likely wouldn't have access to.  Would the tournament be closed to the ASC four?  Not necessarily, but how their limited in-division profiles might compare with other Pool Cs makes the situation quite different. 

I'm also not sure how much longer Wesley was going to be able to go living outside of a conference.  Finding a home in the NJAC was absolutely necessary for them.  Being an independent in Division III in 2023 isn't really sustainable. 

[Riley Zayas]

What is the benefit of moving to D2?
Increased cost for (roughly) the same exposure as D3?

It seems like the number of D2 football schools is dwindling because they are either making the jump to FCS for the big(ger) money, or dropping to D3 to eliminate the expense of athletic scholarships. At least that's the view from the upper midwest.

The only alternative to D2, it appears, would be staying in a 4-team (non-AQ) conference where each school would have to find 7 non-conference football opponents every year. A move to D2 would be one of necessity rather than outright benefit. Teams in our neck of the woods do not have as many options as schools in most other parts of the country. The only other conferences that would be geographically viable for the four schools in question would be the SAC or the SCAC, and neither of those are options due to the fact that most of the programs in those conferences can't/won't compete with the likes of UMHB and Hardin-Simmons or the fact that they don't like the Christian values of the Baptist schools.... or possibly both.

Wasn't Wesley able to survive for many years as an independent and/or as a member of the ACFC, which only had a few teams? I was always surprised by the school's willingness/ability to pay for travel to find games. Obviously, they aren't around anymore, and were located in an area with more D3 schools, but they were able to sustain that for a number of years and were extremely competitive.

Yes, they were an independent for 4 years from 2011-2014. Played a lot of non-D3 opponents though.

In my opinion, It would never work for the ASC. In large part due to the lack of available opponents. A 4-team ASC would struggle, even if you played round-robin twice (which I doubt anybody would vote for). Scheduling 3 non-conf games was near impossible for HSU this year...so to ask them to try to find 4 would be unfair...and to spend all that money on non-conference games when your league does not have an AQ, and is unlikely to regain an AQ in coming years, is pointless. They'd be playing for a Pool B every year. Personally, I don't believe that is an option those in the ASC are currently considering, though I could be wrong.

Worth mentioning that when Wesley was in the independent abyss, there were enough non-AQ qualifying leagues that Pool B had a bid allocated to it.  If we're in a situation where the ASC four are the only non-AQ teams out there, that's not enough to allocate a bid to Pool B.  The ASC four would be in Pool C against league runners up that have built a pile of in-division primary criteria that the ASC teams likely wouldn't have access to.  Would the tournament be closed to the ASC four?  Not necessarily, but how their limited in-division profiles might compare with other Pool Cs makes the situation quite different. 

I'm also not sure how much longer Wesley was going to be able to go living outside of a conference.  Finding a home in the NJAC was absolutely necessary for them.  Being an independent in Division III in 2023 isn't really sustainable.

Yeah that's a great point. And I should've noted that about Pool B as well. There is a good chance there would not be a Pool B unless perhaps, with the enrollment cliff in 2026, another league or two found itself in a similar spot. But again, everything I am hearing indicates that the ASC isn't going to last. You hit the nail on the head...being an independent in 2023 is not sustainable...much less in a place where few D3 programs exist. That's the bottom line point I was trying to make. Ultimately, it is highly likely that we see significant news in regards to the future of the ASC before the 2023 football season kicks off....stay tuned.

[Ron Boerger]

The ASC removed Amy Carlton from its staff page, and they're now a week behind announcing a replacement; when they announced she was "stepping away by June 30" the timeline to announce the new commissioner was by May 31st.