FB: American Southwest Conference

[crufootball]

I highly doubt UMHB is doing something others aren't. Now I know there are schools that care very little about athletics and won't do this, and I know there are schools that put a premium on athletics and, I suspect, do it regularly.

I'd definitely put UMHB in the cares a lot category. If the other ASC members were less interested, that's a mission and values mismatch and absolutely a valid reason to not be in the same conference.

Again I agree with you and personally I don't have any problems with schools wanting to play amongst peers, just don't like it when accusations are thrown out there about schools cheating in areas that are highly monitored by the NCAA. 

[jknezek]

1.  The NCAA would have heard about it by now of so many of the former ASC schools were disgruntled about it.

2.  I can't imagine ETBU and HPU being "OK" with it considering they have been 2nd/3rd tier in the ASC behind both

3.  If you're going to go through all the trouble and expense of basically operating as a D2 or lower-level FCS school...then why not just move up and gain that prestige?  Most fans outside of the D3 world couldn't name who the D3 champion was in any sport.... most probably don't know who's D3 and who's NAIA.  They lilterally see little to no difference in the two.

1) Not necessarily. I think it's common and hard to prove. NCAA: "Why did you give student A X amount of aid?" School: "He came from a disadvantaged school." or "He wrote an exceptional entrance essay." or "He is the first applicant from X School and we want to open the doors." or "Parental financial difficulties." or "He has 2 siblings in college." or "He called and told us he was deciding between 2 schools and needed a more competitive offer." Yes, I highly recommend doing this last one if your kid is heading off to college. It works a lot. Either way, you can justify aid 1000 ways.


3) D3 has different operating expenses and it's not just scholarships. Coaches salaries, facilities, travel, recruiting budgets, it all goes up if you want to compete in D2 or FCS. Scholarships are then enumerated out of the athletic department, where everyone can see them, as opposed to general financial aid given to students. It's a big, open, line item. Compliance is bigger, more complicated, and more expensive. Staff tend to be bigger. Scholarships are just part of the extra expense.

2) Who knows? It may not be over this issue alone. Maybe the Baptist 4 voted as a block a few too many times and other schools just don't want to deal with the hassle. Maybe it's personal. Maybe they don't want to invite those 2 and then have to deal with them advocating for the other 2. Things are rarely cut and dry.
 

[DriftlessDuhawk]

There really is no point to this type of statement. If you are a D3 school, and you want an athlete, you can find a way to give him/her tuition and aid money if the school is willing. It's ridiculously easy to find reasons to give scholarship/aid money, you just can't say it's for athletics outright.

This is basically how every single school in the Midwest operates when it comes to D3 recruiting, except for the WIAC (because they are public schools they don't offer as much financial aid and thus can't just throw it around). As it has been mentioned in this thread, how much each school is ok with it varies greatly.

[D3fanboy]

How hard did the NCAA look into it???  They seem to have a lot more worries than what is going on at a DIII school. 

It's all about accounting, if done correctly there is no way the NCAA would ever be able to find anything. 

Hard enough to be one of the only schools in history to have an NCAA championship vacated.

only one D3FB school...

[jekelish]

There really is no point to this type of statement. If you are a D3 school, and you want an athlete, you can find a way to give him/her tuition and aid money if the school is willing. It's ridiculously easy to find reasons to give scholarship/aid money, you just can't say it's for athletics outright. And overall, your school has to balance athletes receiving scholarship/aid money with general population students receiving scholarship/aid money.

But on a case by case basis, if you want 10 or 15 football players, 5 soccer players, 2 basketball players, how hard is it to give them money? It's not. Especially when, in the case of football, you have 100-150 freshman coming to campus every year. If you have 150, you give 10 of them that you really want a really good deal on admission as completely allowable financial aid for one reason or another, and then 120 more get what the general student population gets, and 20 more get less than what the general population gets. You probably weren't recruiting those 20 anyway. On average, it all looks fine. It's easy peasy and the only way anyone would even bat an eye is if you audit every single incoming student's package for every possible reason and you turn up one that looks really, really funny. The NCAA is NOT in a position to do that.

These allegations are as likely true as they are likely common at many institutions. 15 or 20 years ago it was the "leadership scholarship" that the NCAA cracked down on. Now it's likely uncategorized student aid. It doesn't have to be full-rides, and it will never be categorized as athletic, and students who receive nice packages can say whatever they want, but it's unprovable. There isn't a tie to athletics, everything looks fine "on average", and it's completely within the rules, even if it's not what the rules were meant for.

I'm no expert, but I've seen enough things, especially lately as I'm of an age where my peer group's kids are being recruited, that it seems common to me. It's part of an institution's commitment to athletics. The more committed the institution, the better the packages for those key students and possibly the more key students allowed. But it's never "athletic scholarships" by definition, even if it is by action.

I completely agree with this but the implication seemed to be that UMHB and HSU were doing something that others weren't and therefore creating an unfair advantage.

I would also just like to go back and make it clear, I am in *no way* trying to imply any of this with my last post, because I have absolutely no way to know if ANY of it is even remotely true. But, from all of the people I've talked to around the region, given how many people are wondering why HSU and UMHB are - as of right now - being left out in the cold at the D3 level, it's because this is the perception, even if it's entirely unfounded.

[crufootball]

There really is no point to this type of statement. If you are a D3 school, and you want an athlete, you can find a way to give him/her tuition and aid money if the school is willing. It's ridiculously easy to find reasons to give scholarship/aid money, you just can't say it's for athletics outright. And overall, your school has to balance athletes receiving scholarship/aid money with general population students receiving scholarship/aid money.

But on a case by case basis, if you want 10 or 15 football players, 5 soccer players, 2 basketball players, how hard is it to give them money? It's not. Especially when, in the case of football, you have 100-150 freshman coming to campus every year. If you have 150, you give 10 of them that you really want a really good deal on admission as completely allowable financial aid for one reason or another, and then 120 more get what the general student population gets, and 20 more get less than what the general population gets. You probably weren't recruiting those 20 anyway. On average, it all looks fine. It's easy peasy and the only way anyone would even bat an eye is if you audit every single incoming student's package for every possible reason and you turn up one that looks really, really funny. The NCAA is NOT in a position to do that.

These allegations are as likely true as they are likely common at many institutions. 15 or 20 years ago it was the "leadership scholarship" that the NCAA cracked down on. Now it's likely uncategorized student aid. It doesn't have to be full-rides, and it will never be categorized as athletic, and students who receive nice packages can say whatever they want, but it's unprovable. There isn't a tie to athletics, everything looks fine "on average", and it's completely within the rules, even if it's not what the rules were meant for.

I'm no expert, but I've seen enough things, especially lately as I'm of an age where my peer group's kids are being recruited, that it seems common to me. It's part of an institution's commitment to athletics. The more committed the institution, the better the packages for those key students and possibly the more key students allowed. But it's never "athletic scholarships" by definition, even if it is by action.

I completely agree with this but the implication seemed to be that UMHB and HSU were doing something that others weren't and therefore creating an unfair advantage.

I would also just like to go back and make it clear, I am in *no way* trying to imply any of this with my last post, because I have absolutely no way to know if ANY of it is even remotely true. But, from all of the people I've talked to around the region, given how many people are wondering why HSU and UMHB are - as of right now - being left out in the cold at the D3 level, it's because this is the perception, even if it's entirely unfounded.

Well if that is the major reason then I truly feel sorry for ETBU and HPU who are getting left out in the cold for no apparent reason.

[CruFrenzy]

I didn't realize my original statement about UMHB scholarships was going to be such a hot take tbh.

UMHB is not cheating (as some have said). UMHB is a private university and has the ability to be flexible with their private grants and aid. Like Jknezek mentioned some universities prioritize athletics and with the grey area in "private aid" I'm 100% sure UMHB isn't the only D3 university that operates that way, but I think it's fair to call that an advantage that they have at this level.

[Ron Boerger]

I didn't realize my original statement about UMHB scholarships was going to be such a hot take tbh.

UMHB is not cheating (as some have said). UMHB is a private university and has the ability to be flexible with their private grants and aid. Like Jknezek mentioned some universities prioritize athletics and with the grey area in "private aid" I'm 100% sure UMHB isn't the only D3 university that operates that way, but I think it's fair to call that an advantage that they have at this level.

Fair enough.  As the one who started this whole brouhaha I wasn't implying UMHB was cheating, just trying to find out what was meant by "scholarship" and that has been provided in spades.  But it has been great to have some conversation here unrelated to the ASC diaspora. 

That said, I would be interested to hear why you feel UMHB has an advantage in that area as compared to schools with comparable resources. 

[Crubacker]

And D3Fanboy shows back up.  Still sore that after MU lost to UMHB in 2018 title game?  That seemed to be the downfall of the great MU-------haven't won a championship since 2017.

[D3fanboy]

And D3Fanboy shows back up.  Still sore that after MU lost to UMHB in 2018 title game?  That seemed to be the downfall of the great MU-------haven't won a championship since 2017.

6-4 and talking about "the downfall" of other programs....

[CruFrenzy]

UMHB just secured former Arkansas Razorback 6'3" 290 lb defensive tackle/defensive lineman Billy "BJ" Ferrell. Billy redshirted at Arkansas and spent 2 years at NE Oklahoma Juco.

Had offers out of high school to Arkansas, Alabama, Louisville and several others. Looks like he's been out of the game for at least a season but looks to be in okay shape via twitter posts. Hoping he's ready to go and a good fit for him and the program.

If it works out he should be a nice addition to an already loaded interior D-Line group with studs Cavness and Botts returning.

Juco film looks how an SEC talent should look, hoping it works out.

One of several former D1/Juco guys we've brought in this offseason. The coaches seem to be recruiting for their lives at the moment (or their jobs, haha).

GO CRU

[Mavchamp]

Well if that is the major reason then I truly feel sorry for ETBU and HPU who are getting left out in the cold for no apparent reason.

If the SCAC and SAA lock HPU and ETBU out...... or an agreement with SCIAC or C2C doesn't happen it will force both of them to NAIA or D2. I don't see any other option.

And IF it's because they are being lumped together with HSU and UMHB (fairly or unfairly) is going to sour a lot of people.

SCAC stability is not in cement. Seems an odd path to take.

[jknezek]

Well if that is the major reason then I truly feel sorry for ETBU and HPU who are getting left out in the cold for no apparent reason.

If the SCAC and SAA lock HPU and ETBU out...... or an agreement with SCIAC or C2C doesn't happen it will force both of them to NAIA or D2. I don't see any other option.

And IF it's because they are being lumped together with HSU and UMHB (fairly or unfairly) is going to sour a lot of people.

SCAC stability is not in cement. Seems an odd path to take.

The SAA isn't lumping them with HSU or UMHB. ETBU and HPU just don't meet their preferred academic reputation. I can't see the SAA extending an invite under any circumstance short of desperation. With 8 football members, the SAA doesn't need them. Accepting Trinity and Southwestern was the stretch the SAA was going to make (not academic... travel). They have no current need to stretch again.

[CNU85]

Well if that is the major reason then I truly feel sorry for ETBU and HPU who are getting left out in the cold for no apparent reason.

If the SCAC and SAA lock HPU and ETBU out...... or an agreement with SCIAC or C2C doesn't happen it will force both of them to NAIA or D2. I don't see any other option.

And IF it's because they are being lumped together with HSU and UMHB (fairly or unfairly) is going to sour a lot of people.

SCAC stability is not in cement. Seems an odd path to take.

The C2C doesn't have football as Salisbury and CNU are in the NJAC as affiliates. It wouldn't make any sense from a football standpoint as it would involve a minimum 2 trips via air per year at about $250k per trip. Schools just don't have that kind of cash in most cases. But hey....stranger things have happened.

[Crubacker]

Dude, all you do is come onto the ASC board to berate UMHB anyway you can.  Get a life loser.  MU has dropped the ball and you can't handle it.  UMHB may be right there with them but MU hasn't won a championship since 2017-----UMHB has won 2 since then.  North Central has solved the MU jinx and apparently so has ALMA.  LOL