FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[emma17]

Thunderhead- what is it with you?  First the WIAC board now the OAC board. And to top it off YOU call out Seventies Icon?

Go Trine- please.   

[ThunderHead]

As someone who knows more then a few D1 athletes, both current and past, let me tell you that ALL of them got a 4 year degree, and only a few of them are in the NFL.

None of the guys I know viewed a football scholarship as the "stepping stone to millions", but rather viewed it as a reward for their hard work and an opportunity to continue to peruse their dream of playing football at the highest level.  Once on campus they worked incredibly hard on the field and off to continue to reach success, and some did go on to make NFL money.

But for most of them, that dream wasn't to become a mega-millionaire, but rather to become a doctor, lawyer, and special education teacher. They all achieved that goal without going into debt doing it, a possibility that wouldn't be afforded them at non-scholarship programs.

While I agree that sometimes athletes abuse their privileges, I don't think it's fair to say that players frequently do this. Most of them are hard working young men who do great things in the community and have used their status to accomplish good things.

Part of the reason you don't see D3 kids selling their jerseys is because there is a big difference in "want" level from an authentic game used OSU jersey, and an authentic game used Trine jersey. Do you really think that a percentage of D3 kids wouldn't sell their jerseys for a little profit if they could?  

Also - I would encourage you to take a look at some of the class and practice schedules of D1 athletes, it's no walk in the park for 95% of them.

Just because D1 sports are big on the athletic part, doesn't mean they lack the "student" part. A few guys who probably got greedy made some mistakes at OSU, but several guys didn't. That should be taken into account as well.

Furthermore, I went to school to make millions myself, so what's the difference? I had a goal, I was going to do what it took to reach that goal. I was able to secure quite a bit of tuition money through grants from my academic achievements in high school, I don't believe that corrupted me. \

Go Trine!!!

[Raider 68]

TSN Preview is out

#1 UWW
#2 UMU

top QB Seaman?
RB Coppage
K Almeida

B-W #13???

Lindys has the teams the same, but no mention of Seaman on either first or second teams.

With Coppage, UWW gets the nod, but Mount has alot coming back. The voters may be split this fall on the number of #1 place votes for either school. UWW loses theeir top OL players, Mount returns theirs. It will be another on-going discussion IMHO!

Do you have a link to these two polls? I can't seem to find them.

Does Mount have Samy Guerrero coming back? I saw he was listed as a Sr. last season.

02 Warhawk,

I hear that last year was it for him!

[seventiesraider]

As Guerrero played in the North-South Senior Classic, I'm gonna make a wild guess and say he is gone.

Thunderboy, I'll gladly put the graduation rate of Mounts Football Players over the last 25 years up against any/all Big 10, 11 12 schools

[drt]

I guess while apples are being compared to oranges, maybe we can say that the lack of financial incentive fo D3 players to sell jerseys/memorabilia may  be a guarantor of D3 purity.  Kids will be kids and they will do stupid things.
HOWEVER,
take the easy money out of the equation and by golly, you'll find out who is really in it for the education and the on-field experience.
Wasn't it Deep Throat who said, "Follow the money."

[ThunderHead]

Fellas,

I understand your view points. I just don't think playing division one football is as easy as you seem to think. I'll give you that athletes shouldn't sell the stuff given to them by the program while they are still at the school. I'm completely on board with that.

But I personally can not fault a kid for taking a D1 full ride, I don't believe that it makes them corrupt, and D3 is full of kids who dreamed big as well. Perhaps they were not in the right high school system, got over looked, didn't work hard enough, or where just handed everything in life by overly rich parents and never put all they had into anything. Let alone their dream of play D1 college football.

It's not fair to say D3 football sucks on the grounds as some say, it's basically the best of the worst, just like it isn't fair to say D1 players are corrupted and don't care about their education because they were offered a full ride scholarship.   

BTW oldman raider - what is the graduation rate of Mounts Football Players over the past 25 years? (varsity only)

GO Trine!!!!

[Mr. Ypsi]

Thunderhead, I'm sure one of the Mount guys can give more detail, but I have seen posts that LK takes great pride that the graduation rate is HIGHER than the winning % (which is well north of 90%).

I don't think anyone has been attacking d1 players as an overall group.  SOME (many?) give in to temptations that d3 players are simply less likely to face.  Also, coaches and programs differ greatly.  When I was a grad assistant at U of M, a few athletes I taught were dumber than a box of rocks (and could not have gotten into any school that truly enforced academic standards if you weren't a potential AA), but also some who were excellent students (and generally VERY disciplined on deadlines).  

True story of a quality coach (personal experience): an assistant coach tried to lean on a TA to raise the grade of a starter.  TA (on my advice - he was a foreign student and unsure what to do) reported to DH who phoned Bo Schembechler.  Assistant coach was cleaning out his desk before the day was over.

That was the day I realized for sure that there would NEVER be any scandals while Bo was around!

[Mr. Ypsi]

BTW, I also taught at d1 EMU for 32 years.  Looking back, I can't really recall any divide between varsity athletes and students in general.  EMU is a very easy school to get into, so 'dumber than a box of rocks' would not necessarily put you at the VERY bottom of the class!   I believe that football and (men's) basketball players WERE generally below average - though a handful excelled.  FWIW, I don't think any female soccer players EVER scored less than an A (and I taught quite a few, and was considered a very tough grader ).

Lest I leave the wrong impression, EMU also has plenty of outstanding students; kids who could have been admitted to Harvard (probably just couldn't afford it, or even Michigan).

[ThunderHead]

Mr. Ypsi,

Great insight. I didn't know you were a GA at UM, I did my GA at Purdue, small world.

If you guys were not attacking the athletes: I apologize. I took it as you were.

Here are the graduation rates of the of top D1 schools for 2010. I'd say those are pretty good scores at any level for football.

Duke   96%
Notre Dame   96%
Navy   93%
Northwestern   92%
Boston College   91%
Vanderbilt   91%
Stanford   89%
Air Force   87%
Army   86%
Miami (Ohio)   85%
Penn State   85%

Keep in mind transfers, which account for as much 18-32% (probably 1-10% of this group) of some D1 schools overall scores, are counted against the graduation rate of the recruited class. So, I'm not sure this is necessarily the best reflection of the actual graduation rate of each individual player. Most kids who transfer to end up finishing school, at least in my experience.


Go Trine!!!

[Mr. Ypsi]

TH, but DO note that those are the top graduation rates, not the graduation rates of the top football powers.  Some of those are truly reprehensible.

But you're right about the fallibility of the graduation rates.  Transfers (whether or not they graduate) are counted a non-graduates.  Likewise, those players who chose not to turn down a multi-million dollar contract before graduating are counted as "failures", even if they eventually get a dgree.

[ThunderHead]

Mr. Ypsi,

Yes, I understand that these are not the top power schools, (yet I say there are some pretty powerful teams in that group) but I'm sure Mt Union is near the top of D3 graduation rates as well. My point is that D1 schools do have similar numbers at the top, and there are far less D1 schools then D3 schools. Furthermore two of those schools in the top 10 are Big Ten schools.

Even with non-graduate transfers and athletes that leave early, both things that are not as frequent in D3 football, these D1 programs still come through with flying colors.

I'd be curious as to what the numbers look like if you take out both factors, I think overall the numbers would be much much higher across the board at the D1 level. I know about 8 guys right now who are finishing their degree after 5-8 years of perusing their post-college athletic career. All of them are stand up guys.  

Also keep in mind that according to Forbes, MT Union has 64% graduation rate within its student body for people working on a 6 year degree. That puts their student body behind all but one Big Ten school. Is this to say that students are less serious about their education at Mt Union? I don't think so, it falls on each individual student. Just like with sports, some make good choices, others don't. 

Illinois                 82%
Indiana                72%
Iowa            66%
Michigan                 88%
Michigan State       74%
Minnesota            63%
Northwestern        93%
Ohio State         71%
Penn State         84%
Purdue                   70%
Wisconsin                 79%

Go Trine!!!

Info from:
Links: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/94/best-colleges-10_Mount-Union-College_94270_2.html
http://collegeapps.about.com/od/choosingacollege/a/big-ten-comparison.htm

[Knightstalker]

There is an added incentive or there used to be to graduate from Navy.  If you washed out and did not graduate you got to transfer, to the Navy as an enlisted man.  Let me tell you they came in as E-5's but they caught hell from everyone and not in a good way.  It took a long time for them to prove themselves to both the officers and enlisted men.

[purple]

 Dom Capers and LK as co-head coaches for OSU,you heard it here first.

[sac]

The fundamental difference between a D1 athlete and a D3 athlete (beside the D3 guy mostly paying his own way) is the academic requirements for admission.

Most D1 programs (including Michigan and Ohio State) follow the NCAA minimum requirements which are pretty low really.  A select few such as the Duke's, Stanford's, Vanderbilt's will be more selective, but even they will take a kid who would have trouble being admitted if he/she were just applying to the general student body.

I would venture the great majority, but not in all cases, of D3 schools academic standards and minimums required for admission are far greater than what their D1 cousins require for admission. 


While thunder makes good points about time requirement for a D1 athlete etc(practically a job at some schools).......it should be noted that D3 programs have no where near the academic support systems in place that D1's do.  There is far more help available to a struggling D1 athlete than a struggling D3 athlete.

[Ryan Tipps]

"People can come up with statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that." -- Homer Simpson

Since this is a football-specific board, this article from The Pittsburg-Post Gazette is probably relevant, despite dating to 2003.

It notes that Kehres' players who remain in the program for four years graduate at a rate in excess of 98%.

Some other football-specific rates put OSU in the bottom third of their conference with 62%.

Both numbers I mentioned are four-year rates, since that's how most D-IIIers get through school.