FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[AO]

I find it interesting that the UMAC fan is the one defending Caruso here.

I know Caruso's belief is that they should never quit, and it had been a long time since I had been at a game St. Thomas lost, but I think a knee would have been wise. I could see the one timeout to bring his team over and have them recognize the moment ... but that's enough.

Who takes a knee when they're losing?  Are you suggesting Mount should have taken a knee on 3rd and 4th down with less than a minute to go?  Perhaps they were more concerned with winning by 3 scores, which is why they punted?

Mount already took a knee - twice - with less than a minute to go.

As two outsiders (UMAC for you, CCIW for me), I find it curious that you are defending the indefensible.  (I also feel strange defending the Mount! )  Attacking a 'victory formation', down three scores with under a minute to go, is utterly indefensible.  As has been noted, calling the first time out seemed like Caruso was calling them over to 'concede with grace' and forget the attack.  To me, to attack a second time (and call another time out), was utterly despicable (and was clearly on Caruso, not his players).

I have tremendous admiration for Caruso for what he has accomplished, but this was a HUGE blot on him.  As someone else said, hopefully he will learn 'integrity' from this.

again, it wasn't a victory formation situation.  You go into the victory formation when you are able to run out the clock.  Mount couldn't.

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

I just went back and rewatched the last couple minutes and I have to side against the Mount posters here. *waits for the smiting avalanche*

Mount went into the victory formation too early as evidenced by the fact that they couldn't run the clock out. If you think that your job is done after 57-59 minutes then what are the players even doing on the field the last portion? There's no rule like baseball where the game ends in the middle of the 9th if the home team is ahead. You have to play for a full 60 minutes of regulation (or about 61 if you're Trinity and Millsaps ).
And no one has mentioned the fact (or if they have I missed it) that the Mount defense had no problems playing the game out the final 40 seconds so why is everyone upset that the St Thomas defense did so prior to that? Is it likely to make up 3 scores in 1 minute... no. Is it impossible? Absolutely not.

Personally I think you Mount fans were just used to complaining about something after the Stagg Bowl because you lost 3 straight years and forgot how winning the title feels (Better to be champs and have to wait 4 years for another than to have never been champs at all... or something like that)

[Mr. Ypsi]

I find it interesting that the UMAC fan is the one defending Caruso here.

I know Caruso's belief is that they should never quit, and it had been a long time since I had been at a game St. Thomas lost, but I think a knee would have been wise. I could see the one timeout to bring his team over and have them recognize the moment ... but that's enough.

Who takes a knee when they're losing?  Are you suggesting Mount should have taken a knee on 3rd and 4th down with less than a minute to go?  Perhaps they were more concerned with winning by 3 scores, which is why they punted?

Mount already took a knee - twice - with less than a minute to go.

As two outsiders (UMAC for you, CCIW for me), I find it curious that you are defending the indefensible.  (I also feel strange defending the Mount! )  Attacking a 'victory formation', down three scores with under a minute to go, is utterly indefensible.  As has been noted, calling the first time out seemed like Caruso was calling them over to 'concede with grace' and forget the attack.  To me, to attack a second time (and call another time out), was utterly despicable (and was clearly on Caruso, not his players).

I have tremendous admiration for Caruso for what he has accomplished, but this was a HUGE blot on him.  As someone else said, hopefully he will learn 'integrity' from this.

again, it wasn't a victory formation situation.  You go into the victory formation when you are able to run out the clock.  Mount couldn't.

Without the time outs, they could.  Since even the announcers thought UST's earlier punt had been a 'concession speech', LK was gracious enough to go victory formation rather than try to score again.

Why are you trying to defend the indefensible?

[AO]

I find it interesting that the UMAC fan is the one defending Caruso here.

I know Caruso's belief is that they should never quit, and it had been a long time since I had been at a game St. Thomas lost, but I think a knee would have been wise. I could see the one timeout to bring his team over and have them recognize the moment ... but that's enough.

Who takes a knee when they're losing?  Are you suggesting Mount should have taken a knee on 3rd and 4th down with less than a minute to go?  Perhaps they were more concerned with winning by 3 scores, which is why they punted?

Mount already took a knee - twice - with less than a minute to go.

As two outsiders (UMAC for you, CCIW for me), I find it curious that you are defending the indefensible.  (I also feel strange defending the Mount! )  Attacking a 'victory formation', down three scores with under a minute to go, is utterly indefensible.  As has been noted, calling the first time out seemed like Caruso was calling them over to 'concede with grace' and forget the attack.  To me, to attack a second time (and call another time out), was utterly despicable (and was clearly on Caruso, not his players).

I have tremendous admiration for Caruso for what he has accomplished, but this was a HUGE blot on him.  As someone else said, hopefully he will learn 'integrity' from this.

again, it wasn't a victory formation situation.  You go into the victory formation when you are able to run out the clock.  Mount couldn't.

Without the time outs, they could.  Since even the announcers thought UST's earlier punt had been a 'concession speech', LK was gracious enough to go victory formation rather than try to score again.

Why are you trying to defend the indefensible?

even the announcers?   Who cares what the announcers think? 

Was Whitewater upset in 2006 when Mount kept running Kmic instead of going to the victory formation?

                   1ST DOWN MTU (A.J. Raebel).
      M 1-10 M43   Nate Kmic rush for 9 yards to the UWW48 (Andy Murray;A.J. Raebel).
      M 2-1  U48   Greg Micheli rush for no gain to the UWW48 (Tristan Borzick).
      M 3-1  U48   Greg Micheli pass complete to A. Antonucci for 9 yards to the UWW39,
                   1ST DOWN MTU (A.J. Raebel).
      M 1-10 U39   Nate Kmic rush for 5 yards to the UWW34 (A.J. Raebel).
      M 2-5  U34   Nate Kmic rush for 3 yards to the UWW31 (Alex Thompson).
      M 3-2  U31   Nate Kmic rush for 5 yards to the UWW26, 1ST DOWN MTU (Gabe
                   Schultz).
      M 1-10 U26   Nate Kmic rush for 3 yards to the UWW23 (Ben Farley;Gabe Schultz).
      M 2-7  U23   Nate Kmic rush for 4 yards to the UWW19 (Eric Kosterman).
      M 3-3  U19   Nate Kmic rush for 9 yards to the UWW10, 1ST DOWN MTU

[Jonny Utah]

I think the biggest point here is that STU is down by 18 (3 scores no matter how you look at it), and they punted on 4th and 18.  Does anyone really think you put your team in a better position to win the game by punting there? 

Sure, you have 3 timeouts, so your best scenerio by punting there (besides a muffed punt return) is to get the ball back around the same position when it was 4th and 18 for you.  And then you still need three scores!

I would have gone for it on 4th and 18, and if I didn't get it, try to hold MTU to a FG with using your Timeouts.  Then you still have the ball back with the same amount of time with a 3 score lead.  You still have to stop MTU on those change of possessions, and a FG doesn't mean much in a scenerio where you have to score 3 times anyway.

[jknezek]

It was odd at the time and it's still odd now. I don't think anyone can really understand the punt on 4th and 18 down 3 scores with 3 minutes to go in context of the later timeouts. Sure the Tommies got the ball back 1st and 10 6 yards up field, but they lost 2 minutes of game time. 1st and 10 from the 44 with 50 seconds left having used timeouts, down by 3 scores, is NOT an improvement over trying 4th and 18 from the 38 with 3 minutes to go and all timeouts.

It's pretty incomprehensible from a clock management point of view. As for calling the timeouts when he did, I don't understand it either. Had he called one after Mount's first and second plays, and tried to hold Mount to a 3 and out, I would have understood that. But Caruso didn't. He waited until Mount got a first down. Sure, having the 3 timeouts meant Mount couldn't run out the clock in victory formation, but I think just about every coach in the nation, given the punt and not using timeouts previously, would have assumed it was over at that point.

Credit LK for going to victory formation at that point, the earliest possible point he could, to respect his opponent and not end up with an added on garbage score. I'm not sure I'll credit Caruso for the same sportsmanship. I don't have a problem with playing to the end, but at least do it with some sense of clock managment and game situational awareness, two things Caruso did not seem show at the end of the Stagg Bowl.

The Tommies will be back. They are a young team and Caruso is a fairly young coach. Maybe this was just one of those moments that happens at the end of a great season that just isn't going to finish the way you hoped. I'm sure LK and Caruso aren't losing sleep over it.

[AO]

It was odd at the time and it's still odd now. I don't think anyone can really understand the punt on 4th and 18 down 3 scores with 3 minutes to go in context of the later timeouts. Sure the Tommies got the ball back 1st and 10 6 yards up field, but they lost 2 minutes of game time. 1st and 10 from the 44 with 50 seconds left having used timeouts, down by 3 scores, is NOT an improvement over trying 4th and 18 from the 38 with 3 minutes to go and all timeouts.

It's pretty incomprehensible from a clock management point of view. As for calling the timeouts when he did, I don't understand it either. Had he called one after Mount's first and second plays, and tried to hold Mount to a 3 and out, I would have understood that. But Caruso didn't. He waited until Mount got a first down. Sure, having the 3 timeouts meant Mount couldn't run out the clock in victory formation, but I think just about every coach in the nation, given the punt and not using timeouts previously, would have assumed it was over at that point.

Credit LK for going to victory formation at that point, the earliest possible point he could, to respect his opponent and not end up with an added on garbage score. I'm not sure I'll credit Caruso for the same sportsmanship. I don't have a problem with playing to the end, but at least do it with some sense of clock managment and game situational awareness, two things Caruso did not seem show at the end of the Stagg Bowl.

The Tommies will be back. They are a young team and Caruso is a fairly young coach. Maybe this was just one of those moments that happens at the end of a great season that just isn't going to finish the way you hoped. I'm sure LK and Caruso aren't losing sleep over it.

They wouldn't have lost 2 minutes of game time if Mount hadn't got that first down.  They would have also been punting from further back, giving the Tommies even better field position.  4th and 18 is a very low percentage play.

You can't give credit to LK for going to victory formation when he can't run the time off the clock.  Understand the game situation and keep playing like he did in 2006.  Mount realized their mistake and ran plays on 3rd and 4th down.

[Dr. Acula]

Guess what's a lower percentage than converting 4th and 18?  Scoring 3 TD's in a minute.   

[PurpleSuit]

AO is the anti-Easterbrook, I never thought I would see the day that someone complains that Mount/LK took a knee too soon.  I think that LK was trying to get the game completed without anyone getting hurt.  Who knows how much longer the Tommies' QB could go on?

But back to football, Junior Collins has been selected to play in the East-West Shrine Game in January.  Following the Cecil Shorts path to the draft.

[Jonny Utah]

It was odd at the time and it's still odd now. I don't think anyone can really understand the punt on 4th and 18 down 3 scores with 3 minutes to go in context of the later timeouts. Sure the Tommies got the ball back 1st and 10 6 yards up field, but they lost 2 minutes of game time. 1st and 10 from the 44 with 50 seconds left having used timeouts, down by 3 scores, is NOT an improvement over trying 4th and 18 from the 38 with 3 minutes to go and all timeouts.

It's pretty incomprehensible from a clock management point of view. As for calling the timeouts when he did, I don't understand it either. Had he called one after Mount's first and second plays, and tried to hold Mount to a 3 and out, I would have understood that. But Caruso didn't. He waited until Mount got a first down. Sure, having the 3 timeouts meant Mount couldn't run out the clock in victory formation, but I think just about every coach in the nation, given the punt and not using timeouts previously, would have assumed it was over at that point.

Credit LK for going to victory formation at that point, the earliest possible point he could, to respect his opponent and not end up with an added on garbage score. I'm not sure I'll credit Caruso for the same sportsmanship. I don't have a problem with playing to the end, but at least do it with some sense of clock managment and game situational awareness, two things Caruso did not seem show at the end of the Stagg Bowl.

The Tommies will be back. They are a young team and Caruso is a fairly young coach. Maybe this was just one of those moments that happens at the end of a great season that just isn't going to finish the way you hoped. I'm sure LK and Caruso aren't losing sleep over it.

They wouldn't have lost 2 minutes of game time if Mount hadn't got that first down.  They would have also been punting from further back, giving the Tommies even better field position.  4th and 18 is a very low percentage play.

You can't give credit to LK for going to victory formation when he can't run the time off the clock.  Understand the game situation and keep playing like he did in 2006.  Mount realized their mistake and ran plays on 3rd and 4th down.

4th and 18 is a very low percentage play, but you have to go for it down 3 scores with that much time left.  I don't think any coach who wants to win a game would do anything different.  Even if it is 4th and 50, you have to throw a hail mary at that point or run some hook and ladder stuff.

And I give LK credit for going into the victory formation because I think that was the right thing to do at that point.  I don't think he expected STU to call timeouts and swipe at the ball.  I give LK and their players a lot of credit for how they handled the end of the game there.

[AO]

Guess what's a lower percentage than converting 4th and 18?  Scoring 3 TD's in a minute.   

You can't score 3 TDs without the ball.  If you punt and then don't allow a first down, you only lose 30 seconds and gain a fresh set of downs from possibly much better field position.  As it was they lost only 1:39.  If you're going to score 3 TDs, with 2 minutes to go, why not 3 TDs with 1:30 to go?

[AO]

AO is the anti-Easterbrook, I never thought I would see the day that someone complains that Mount/LK took a knee too soon.  I think that LK was trying to get the game completed without anyone getting hurt.  Who knows how much longer the Tommies' QB could go on?

But back to football, Junior Collins has been selected to play in the East-West Shrine Game in January.  Following the Cecil Shorts path to the draft.

BS.  Watch the hits Driskill was delivering in the final 30 seconds.  Why is Driskill even out there if LK is concerned about an injury?  He realized his mistake in not understanding the clock and decided to keep playing.

[jknezek]

They wouldn't have lost 2 minutes of game time if Mount hadn't got that first down.  They would have also been punting from further back, giving the Tommies even better field position.  4th and 18 is a very low percentage play.

You can't give credit to LK for going to victory formation when he can't run the time off the clock.  Understand the game situation and keep playing like he did in 2006.  Mount realized their mistake and ran plays on 3rd and 4th down.

Um... 4th and 18 is low percentage, but giving the ball back to your opponents, down 3 scores with 3 minutes to play, is even lower percentage to win. You can't credit that as a good strategy at the same time you want to credit not calling timeout after the first two running plays. Either you punted trying to win, which means you need the ball back ASAP so you need a 3 and out, and you need to save clock. To do that, you use those timeouts after the first and second down runs.

Or you punted trying to limit the scoring damage, which means you let LK run out the clock as cleanly as he can. You don't punt, don't save clock time going for a 3 and out using time outs, and then decide to prolong the game and get the possession back after you've run 2/3rds of your available time off the clock and the opposing team is sitting on a second down after taking a sportsmanship knee. Sure you CAN, but what is the reason for doing so given your previous actions?

In context, it makes no sense, regardless of how much you wish it did. Personally I don't think it was necessarily meant as bad sportsmanship, just a coach caught up in the game making some odd choices under pressure at the end of a long season and a disappointing game. It happens, but it's really not defensible as "good football strategy."

As for Mount realizing a "mistake", I don't think Mount was making a mistake. I think Mount was working with the most logical information from Caruso's previous actions and was intending to end the game as cleanly and expediantly as possible. They may have mistook Caruso's intentions, but given Caruso's previous actions, I think the Mount coaching staff came to an entirely defensible conclusion.

[Jonny Utah]

Guess what's a lower percentage than converting 4th and 18?  Scoring 3 TD's in a minute.   

You can't score 3 TDs without the ball.  If you punt and then don't allow a first down, you only lose 30 seconds and gain a fresh set of downs from possibly much better field position.  As it was they lost only 1:39.  If you're going to score 3 TDs, with 2 minutes to go, why not 3 TDs with 1:30 to go?

They had the ball and chose to give it away.  You have a better chance of getting a 1st down on 4th and 18 than you do having to punt it and hope to stop MTU from getting a first down and then hoping again that your field position is "much better".

[PurpleSuit]

AO is the anti-Easterbrook, I never thought I would see the day that someone complains that Mount/LK took a knee too soon.  I think that LK was trying to get the game completed without anyone getting hurt.  Who knows how much longer the Tommies' QB could go on?

But back to football, Junior Collins has been selected to play in the East-West Shrine Game in January.  Following the Cecil Shorts path to the draft.

BS.  Watch the hits Driskill was delivering in the final 30 seconds.  Why is Driskill even out there if LK is concerned about an injury?  He realized his mistake in not understanding the clock and decided to keep playing.

Because they are playing tackle football.  St Thomas decided that they wanted to keep playing and the Mount Union defensive players were probably more than willing to lay the wood with little-to-no consequences.  If a St Thomas player would have been injured in the final minute or so, it would have been all on their coach.