FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[TailGate]

28 out of 127 Division I-A schools WITH football have less than 12,000 student enrollment -- i.e.  UWW is *bigger* than 22% of D1 schools with football programs.
107 of 123 Division I-AA schools WITH football have less than 12,000 students -- i.e. UWW is *bigger* than 87% of D1-AA schools with football programs.

Granted some D1 schools are in transition in NCAA divisions.... but you get the point.

[badgerwarhawk]

No school in the WIAC has the resources to recruit in Florida.  If you look at the rosters in the league you'll notice that the overwhelming majority of them come from within a 200 mile radius of the school they're attending.  I imagine that might also be the case with the majority of Mount's recruits. 

Unfortunately you entirely miss the point.  Enrollment is a mute issue because we don't recruit from within the general student population.  If you're on the football roster it's because we sought you out or you sought us out.  Open tryouts don't exist. Also our rosters are limited by league rule to 100 players.  Mount's is considerably larger than that.     

[02 Warhawk]

28 out of 127 Division I-A schools WITH football have less than 12,000 student enrollment -- i.e.  UWW is *bigger* than 22% of D1 schools with football programs.
107 of 123 Division I-AA schools WITH football have less than 12,000 students -- i.e. UWW is *bigger* than 87% of D1-AA schools with football programs.

Granted some D1 schools are in transition in NCAA divisions.... but you get the point.

I wonder how Duke basketball even survives....it's a miracle they can win a single game with such a small enrollment. 

This isn't high school....enrollment is irrelevant in college sports. Mount Union should know that more than anyone.

[TailGate]

Resource  - Federal Govt data ...     http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/

You can do a side-by-side comparison.  The average NET price for MU students (in state or out-of state) is $22,563 and MU has 83% of kids from in-state.   The average NET price for UWW students (this is in-state only figure) is 10,518 and UWW has 81% in-state.

The UWW tuition is about $7,500 higher for out-of-state.  Projecting this in the mix - would suggest average NET price for UWW out-of-state at around 18K.... still significantly less than MU at a difference of approx. 18k over 4 years.

In any case, the MAJORITY of the students on the UWW team are either in-state or come from neighboring states - which VERY WELL may have in-state tuition reciprocity with UWW.... meaning those kids actually pay "in-state".   

Don't kid yourself - there is a definite PRICE differential here.  Kids can go to UWW fairly *Cheap*.    Regarding academics - the student populations pretty much MIRROR one another in *smarts* according to ACT scores.   

[02 Warhawk]

Resource  - Federal Govt data ...     http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/

You can do a side-by-side comparison.  The average NET price for MU students (in state or out-of state) is $22,563 and MU has 83% of kids from in-state.   The average NET price for UWW students (this is in-state only figure) is 10,518 and UWW has 81% in-state.

The UWW tuition is about $7,500 higher for out-of-state.  Projecting this in the mix - would suggest average NET price for UWW out-of-state at around 18K.... still significantly less than MU at a difference of approx. 18k over 4 years.

In any case, the MAJORITY of the students on the UWW team are either in-state or come from neighboring states - which VERY WELL may have in-state tuition reciprocity with UWW.... meaning those kids actually pay "in-state".   

Don't kid yourself - there is a definite PRICE differential here.  Kids can go to UWW fairly *Cheap*.    Regarding academics - the student populations pretty much MIRROR one another in *smarts* according to ACT scores.   

Close but no..

1/3 of UWW student athletes are from Illinios, where they don't offer recitprocity. However, they do offer it to the other surrounding states.

At least you got away from your enrollment argument. 

[TailGate]

Size does matter.  LOL.  But I will just let you think it does not....

[TailGate]

Resource  - Federal Govt data ...     http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/

You can do a side-by-side comparison.  The average NET price for MU students (in state or out-of state) is $22,563 and MU has 83% of kids from in-state.   The average NET price for UWW students (this is in-state only figure) is 10,518 and UWW has 81% in-state.

The UWW tuition is about $7,500 higher for out-of-state.  Projecting this in the mix - would suggest average NET price for UWW out-of-state at around 18K.... still significantly less than MU at a difference of approx. 18k over 4 years.

In any case, the MAJORITY of the students on the UWW team are either in-state or come from neighboring states - which VERY WELL may have in-state tuition reciprocity with UWW.... meaning those kids actually pay "in-state".   

Don't kid yourself - there is a definite PRICE differential here.  Kids can go to UWW fairly *Cheap*.    Regarding academics - the student populations pretty much MIRROR one another in *smarts* according to ACT scores.   

Close but no..

1/3 of UWW student athletes are from Illinios, where they don't offer recitprocity. However, they do offer it to the other surrounding states.

At least you got away from your enrollment argument. 

Ok then.  Roughly 66% of UWW kids pay 10.5k/year (42k over 4 yrs), while Mount's kids are paying an average of 22.5/yr (90k over 4 years).   So, agreed - cost is certainly a bigger factor for recruits than enrollment size, and those intrinsics that come with a larger institution that can offer more majors, lower costs, enhanced facilities, and all those things that come with economies of scale,  etc.   Thanks for clearing that up.

[Dr. Acula]

The arguments can just go round and round.  Their tuition is cheaper.  But Mount can bring in 100 kids every year.  But UWW has a huge enrollment.  But Mount has twice as much talent in the HS programs of their home state.  But UWW doesn't have a slew of D2 schools to compete with in WI.  It could go on forever.  Suffice to say both programs have advantages the other would enjoy.

[02 Warhawk]

The arguments can just go round and round.  Their tuition is cheaper.  But Mount can bring in 100 kids every year.  But UWW has a huge enrollment.  But Mount has twice as much talent in the HS programs of their home state.  But UWW doesn't have a slew of D2 schools to compete with in WI.  It could go on forever.  Suffice to say both programs have advantages the other would enjoy.

+K

Dr. Acula gets it...

[02 Warhawk]

Resource  - Federal Govt data ...     http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/

You can do a side-by-side comparison.  The average NET price for MU students (in state or out-of state) is $22,563 and MU has 83% of kids from in-state.   The average NET price for UWW students (this is in-state only figure) is 10,518 and UWW has 81% in-state.

The UWW tuition is about $7,500 higher for out-of-state.  Projecting this in the mix - would suggest average NET price for UWW out-of-state at around 18K.... still significantly less than MU at a difference of approx. 18k over 4 years.

In any case, the MAJORITY of the students on the UWW team are either in-state or come from neighboring states - which VERY WELL may have in-state tuition reciprocity with UWW.... meaning those kids actually pay "in-state".   

Don't kid yourself - there is a definite PRICE differential here.  Kids can go to UWW fairly *Cheap*.    Regarding academics - the student populations pretty much MIRROR one another in *smarts* according to ACT scores.   

Close but no..

1/3 of UWW student athletes are from Illinios, where they don't offer recitprocity. However, they do offer it to the other surrounding states.

At least you got away from your enrollment argument. 

Ok then.  Roughly 66% of UWW kids pay 10.5k/year (42k over 4 yrs), while Mount's kids are paying an average of 22.5/yr (90k over 4 years).   So, agreed - cost is certainly a bigger factor for recruits than enrollment size, and those intrinsics that come with a larger institution that can offer more majors, lower costs, enhanced facilities, and all those things that come with economies of scale,  etc.   Thanks for clearing that up.

It's not like Mount is asking their football players to fork over a $22,000+ check each year...that's what Financial Aid is for. Considering the level of football talent Mount has been able to attract over the past 20 years, I'm not buying that tuition costs are that big a deal for the Mount Union football program (or for any DIII football program for that matter).

If a football recruit wants to play for the Purple Raiders (rich or poor), I'm sure they will find a way.

[emma17]

The arguments can just go round and round.  Their tuition is cheaper.  But Mount can bring in 100 kids every year.  But UWW has a huge enrollment.  But Mount has twice as much talent in the HS programs of their home state.  But UWW doesn't have a slew of D2 schools to compete with in WI.  It could go on forever.  Suffice to say both programs have advantages the other would enjoy.

Add another +k for sanity.

[emma17]

Resource  - Federal Govt data ...     http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/

You can do a side-by-side comparison.  The average NET price for MU students (in state or out-of state) is $22,563 and MU has 83% of kids from in-state.   The average NET price for UWW students (this is in-state only figure) is 10,518 and UWW has 81% in-state.

The UWW tuition is about $7,500 higher for out-of-state.  Projecting this in the mix - would suggest average NET price for UWW out-of-state at around 18K.... still significantly less than MU at a difference of approx. 18k over 4 years.

In any case, the MAJORITY of the students on the UWW team are either in-state or come from neighboring states - which VERY WELL may have in-state tuition reciprocity with UWW.... meaning those kids actually pay "in-state".   

Don't kid yourself - there is a definite PRICE differential here.  Kids can go to UWW fairly *Cheap*.    Regarding academics - the student populations pretty much MIRROR one another in *smarts* according to ACT scores.   

Close but no..

1/3 of UWW student athletes are from Illinios, where they don't offer recitprocity. However, they do offer it to the other surrounding states.

At least you got away from your enrollment argument. 

Ok then.  Roughly 66% of UWW kids pay 10.5k/year (42k over 4 yrs), while Mount's kids are paying an average of 22.5/yr (90k over 4 years).   So, agreed - cost is certainly a bigger factor for recruits than enrollment size, and those intrinsics that come with a larger institution that can offer more majors, lower costs, enhanced facilities, and all those things that come with economies of scale,  etc.   Thanks for clearing that up.

Tailgate, you seem like a reasonable guy, and one willing to consider both sides of an argument.  I'm curious why you jumped on the enrollment bandwagon initially.  Surely you know about Duke winning national championships in basketball and Notre Dame and Mt Union in football.  What made you ignore these realities and try to support an argument that somehow enrollment is a key to athletic success?

[ExTartanPlayer]

The arguments can just go round and round.  Their tuition is cheaper.  But Mount can bring in 100 kids every year.  But UWW has a huge enrollment.  But Mount has twice as much talent in the HS programs of their home state.  But UWW doesn't have a slew of D2 schools to compete with in WI.  It could go on forever.  Suffice to say both programs have advantages the other would enjoy.

Agreed.  Dr. Acula gets it, and the argument should probably end here, the only reason it's even going on is that we have a relative newbie to the boards who hasn't slogged through this before.

The only thing I wish to throw into this argument is another vote for the "enrollment doesn't matter in college sports" argument. It doesn't matter because, as stated, you're not recruiting from the general student population, and the relative "size" of a sports program is defined far more by the program's success and the school's emphasis on the sport than total campus enrollment.  The University of Central Florida is the second-largest college in the nation by enrollment; Florida International University is the seventh-largest.  Why, then, are Florida State, Florida, and Miami the biggest football powers in that state?  Arizona State is the biggest college in the nation; the Sun Devils haven't won a conference title in recent memory, much less a national title. 

Another one of the points Dr. Acula made here, the lack of D2 competition for recruits in Wisconsin, is much more germane to this discussion than total enrollment of the respective schools.  However, as Dr. Acula said, both programs have advantages.  Discussing them can provide interesting fodder, but that's all it is. 

I read a neat little item in a book about Yale-Harvard football once comparing some of the Ivies' football recruiting practices to one another.  One of the Ivy schools - I think it's Penn - has somewhat lower admission standards ("lower" being a relative term, we're talking about the Ivy League here) than Yale and Harvard, but when offered that as a potential excuse, the Yale/Harvard coaches declined to bite, saying that the academic draw of Yale and Harvard meant that while Penn might be able to admit some kids that they couldn't, they would get some kids over Penn because of their academic reputation, so in the end it was kind of a wash.

Arguing about Mount and UWW's tuition and academics would be more relevant if they were recruiting from the same pool and in direct competition for a lot of recruits, but my guess is that, for the most part, they aren't in direct competition for most of their recruits.  There probably aren't many kids weighing Mount vs. UWW and deciding to go to one for the cheaper tuition, or the other for Reason X.

[02 Warhawk]

Agreed.  Dr. Acula gets it, and the argument should probably end here, the only reason it's even going on is that we have a relative newbie to the boards who hasn't slogged through this before.

Ohhhh...how I wish that would be true

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

Dick Crum's wife passed away this week.  Coach Crum graduated from Mount Union in 1957.  He then was a local HS assistant coach in the area.  His first Head Coaching job was at Mentor HS (my uncle played for him).

He then was an assistant at Miami where my Dad coached with him. He eventually became the HC at Miami, UNC, and Kent State.

I got the following information from my mom:

Shirley S. (Moncur) Crum age 79 of Perry, Ohio formerly of Chapel Hill, NC, Oxford, OH. and Mentor, OH., died Friday February 28, 2014 at the Cleveland Clinic, Cleveland, OH. She was born December 2, 1934 in Mount Air, OH.

Shirley was a homemaker, Physical Education teacher and a librarian. She was a graduate of Ohio University, where she was a member of Alpha Chi Omega Sorority. She also graduated from Miami University with a Library Science Degree. She was a member of Painesville United Methodist Church.

Mrs. Crum was a surrogate mother to thousands of football players who played on her husband Dick football teams at Mentor High School, Miami University, University of North Carolina and Kent State University.

Survivors include her husband of 53 years Dick M. Crum, sons: Michael (Kelly) Crum of Charlotte, NC, Joel (Donna) Crum of Youngstown, OH and Jeff Crum of Charlotte, NC, grandchildren: John, Owen, Ryan, Kerstin and Riley and brother: Reginald Moncur of Delaware, OH.

Preceding Shirley in death are her parents: Reginald and Rose Moncur.

The funeral service will be 1 pm Friday at Painesville United Methodist Church, 71 N. Park Place, Painesville, OH.

The family will receive friends Thursday 3-8 pm at Brunner Sanden Deitrick Funeral Home & Cremation Center, 8466 Mentor Ave., Mentor, OH 44060.

Interment will be in Mentor Cemetery, Mentor, OH.

In lieu of flowers contributions may be made to Cure Pancreatic Cancer, The Lustgarten Foundation 1111 Stewart Avenue, Bethpage, New York 11714. The Lustgarten Foundation ensures that 100% of every donation goes directly to pancreatic cancer research.

Online obituary at www.brunners.com.