FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[grboob]

Curious to know the retention rate of Fla players at D3 private midwest/northern school.  Weather, academics, travel distance issues?

[flaballcoach]

I relayed the story earlier about a MU recruit from Florida that l actually coached against who committed early on despite having offers from higher division schools. Apparently he had his heart set on MU for awhile. I believe his father? is from the Pittsburgh area and he still has plenty of family up there.....that may have played into it. So it isn't only about kids with no other offers or "the ugly girl waiting for a call on Friday night" as someone posted earlier. Programs like MU, Whitewater, and other high level d3 programs would seem to hold a lot of appeal if finances are not the only concern. Some kids value the opportunity to play in a very successful program, with the same coach for 4 years while getting a high level education. I think it would be wrong for anyone to assume these kids from out of state had no other options. Schools like MU and Whitewater, etc., recruit kids who can play the game as demonstrated by their records.

[bleedpurple]

I relayed the story earlier about a MU recruit from Florida that l actually coached against who committed early on despite having offers from higher division schools. Apparently he had his heart set on MU for awhile. I believe his father? is from the Pittsburgh area and he still has plenty of family up there.....that may have played into it. So it isn't only about kids with no other offers or "the ugly girl waiting for a call on Friday night" as someone posted earlier. Programs like MU, Whitewater, and other high level d3 programs would seem to hold a lot of appeal if finances are not the only concern. Some kids value the opportunity to play in a very successful program, with the same coach for 4 years while getting a high level education. I think it would be wrong for anyone to assume these kids from out of state had no other options. Schools like MU and Whitewater, etc., recruit kids who can play the game as demonstrated by their records.

I agree.  But bringing Mount into the discussion changes things a bit. With all of Mount's monster success and their National Championships, they have the ability to credibly offer the opportunity to win a National Championship.  The other schools, midwest or otherwise, don't have the recent history to do that.  Of all the well chronicled benefits of UW-W (Location, relatively low tuition, No D-II's in state, etc.), NONE is greater benefit than their National Championships.  Yes, a number of players on the team turned down D-II offers (Minnesota D-II schools recruit Wisconsin HARD knowing we don't have D-II's).  I'm guessing in Mount's case, some of the talented Florida players head north willing to endure the cold for a shot at a championship.  And that is the kind of athlete  you want. All in all, it's a nice little cycle to be on.

[reality check]

There are also no JC/CC Football programs in FL.  For some of these guys, heading to the Midwest is the only route if they want to play football in college.

Definitely no D3 Football in FL, but apparently there is now a Juco in Miami sponsoring football, called ASA College.  I only know this because an ex-ND player is headed there this fall.

http://irish.nbcsports.com/2015/08/12/done-in-south-bend-greg-bryant-reportedly-lands-at-florida-juco/


Also:  I would push the small-town values of Ada before I admit the town is nearby Lima.  Lima is truly awful.

Welp.  You're officially uninvited to Kewpee's.

[SaintsFAN]

There are also no JC/CC Football programs in FL.  For some of these guys, heading to the Midwest is the only route if they want to play football in college.

Definitely no D3 Football in FL, but apparently there is now a Juco in Miami sponsoring football, called ASA College.  I only know this because an ex-ND player is headed there this fall.

http://irish.nbcsports.com/2015/08/12/done-in-south-bend-greg-bryant-reportedly-lands-at-florida-juco/


Also:  I would push the small-town values of Ada before I admit the town is nearby Lima.  Lima is truly awful.

Welp.  You're officially uninvited to Kewpee's.

I stopped in there on my way to Michigan back in May

[Toph]

I relayed the story earlier about a MU recruit from Florida that l actually coached against who committed early on despite having offers from higher division schools. Apparently he had his heart set on MU for awhile. I believe his father? is from the Pittsburgh area and he still has plenty of family up there.....that may have played into it. So it isn't only about kids with no other offers or "the ugly girl waiting for a call on Friday night" as someone posted earlier. Programs like MU, Whitewater, and other high level d3 programs would seem to hold a lot of appeal if finances are not the only concern. Some kids value the opportunity to play in a very successful program, with the same coach for 4 years while getting a high level education. I think it would be wrong for anyone to assume these kids from out of state had no other options. Schools like MU and Whitewater, etc., recruit kids who can play the game as demonstrated by their records.

I agree.  But bringing Mount into the discussion changes things a bit. With all of Mount's monster success and their National Championships, they have the ability to credibly offer the opportunity to win a National Championship.  The other schools, midwest or otherwise, don't have the recent history to do that.  Of all the well chronicled benefits of UW-W (Location, relatively low tuition, No D-II's in state, etc.), NONE is greater benefit than their National Championships.  Yes, a number of players on the team turned down D-II offers (Minnesota D-II schools recruit Wisconsin HARD knowing we don't have D-II's).  I'm guessing in Mount's case, some of the talented Florida players head north willing to endure the cold for a shot at a championship.  And that is the kind of athlete  you want. All in all, it's a nice little cycle to be on.

Relatively low tuition??  In state tuition is less than $7k per year.  Most D3 schools, in addition to having a smaller enrollment than Division I schools (a claim Whitewater can't make), will cost far more than $7k per semester.  JCU is almost $36k per year in tuition alone.  Mount Union is almost $28k.  ONU is $28k.  Compared to most D3 schools, the Wisconsin schools aren't relatively low...they're practically free.

[02 Warhawk]

I relayed the story earlier about a MU recruit from Florida that l actually coached against who committed early on despite having offers from higher division schools. Apparently he had his heart set on MU for awhile. I believe his father? is from the Pittsburgh area and he still has plenty of family up there.....that may have played into it. So it isn't only about kids with no other offers or "the ugly girl waiting for a call on Friday night" as someone posted earlier. Programs like MU, Whitewater, and other high level d3 programs would seem to hold a lot of appeal if finances are not the only concern. Some kids value the opportunity to play in a very successful program, with the same coach for 4 years while getting a high level education. I think it would be wrong for anyone to assume these kids from out of state had no other options. Schools like MU and Whitewater, etc., recruit kids who can play the game as demonstrated by their records.

I agree.  But bringing Mount into the discussion changes things a bit. With all of Mount's monster success and their National Championships, they have the ability to credibly offer the opportunity to win a National Championship.  The other schools, midwest or otherwise, don't have the recent history to do that.  Of all the well chronicled benefits of UW-W (Location, relatively low tuition, No D-II's in state, etc.), NONE is greater benefit than their National Championships.  Yes, a number of players on the team turned down D-II offers (Minnesota D-II schools recruit Wisconsin HARD knowing we don't have D-II's).  I'm guessing in Mount's case, some of the talented Florida players head north willing to endure the cold for a shot at a championship.  And that is the kind of athlete  you want. All in all, it's a nice little cycle to be on.

Relatively low tuition??  In state tuition is less than $7k per year.  Most D3 schools, in addition to having a smaller enrollment than Division I schools (a claim Whitewater can't make), will cost far more than $7k per semester.  JCU is almost $36k per year in tuition alone.  Mount Union is almost $28k.  ONU is $28k.  Compared to most D3 schools, the Wisconsin schools aren't relatively low...they're practically free.

For the record it's $7K a semester....not year. I realize that's still short of the private schools in DIII, but get your facts right.

Also, since when does enrollment size equate to athletic sucess in college? This isn't high school. (Do we really have to have this conversation every 3 months to someone who doesn't know better...it really gets old.    )

[Toph]

I relayed the story earlier about a MU recruit from Florida that l actually coached against who committed early on despite having offers from higher division schools. Apparently he had his heart set on MU for awhile. I believe his father? is from the Pittsburgh area and he still has plenty of family up there.....that may have played into it. So it isn't only about kids with no other offers or "the ugly girl waiting for a call on Friday night" as someone posted earlier. Programs like MU, Whitewater, and other high level d3 programs would seem to hold a lot of appeal if finances are not the only concern. Some kids value the opportunity to play in a very successful program, with the same coach for 4 years while getting a high level education. I think it would be wrong for anyone to assume these kids from out of state had no other options. Schools like MU and Whitewater, etc., recruit kids who can play the game as demonstrated by their records.

I agree.  But bringing Mount into the discussion changes things a bit. With all of Mount's monster success and their National Championships, they have the ability to credibly offer the opportunity to win a National Championship.  The other schools, midwest or otherwise, don't have the recent history to do that.  Of all the well chronicled benefits of UW-W (Location, relatively low tuition, No D-II's in state, etc.), NONE is greater benefit than their National Championships.  Yes, a number of players on the team turned down D-II offers (Minnesota D-II schools recruit Wisconsin HARD knowing we don't have D-II's).  I'm guessing in Mount's case, some of the talented Florida players head north willing to endure the cold for a shot at a championship.  And that is the kind of athlete  you want. All in all, it's a nice little cycle to be on.

Relatively low tuition??  In state tuition is less than $7k per year.  Most D3 schools, in addition to having a smaller enrollment than Division I schools (a claim Whitewater can't make), will cost far more than $7k per semester.  JCU is almost $36k per year in tuition alone.  Mount Union is almost $28k.  ONU is $28k.  Compared to most D3 schools, the Wisconsin schools aren't relatively low...they're practically free.

For the record it's $7K a semester....not year. I realize that's still short of the private schools in DIII, but get your facts right.

Also, since when does enrollment size equate to athletic sucess in college? This isn't high school. (Do we really have to have this conversation every 3 months to someone who doesn't know better...it really gets old.    )

Apologies, I misread the cost of attendance, my point stands. EDIT: I was almost correct.  Tuition for an in state student is $3800 per semester, $7600 per year.  My source:  https://uwwcost.uww.edu/   

And to say a larger school doesn't translate to athletic success is ludicrous.  A larger student body means a larger pool of potential athletes, lower cost of attendance means more potential athletes can afford your university, a larger alumni base means more opportunity for donations and endowments to pay for facilities...if you really don't think there's a correlation between the size of Whitewater and their success in athletics (across the board, not just football), you're kidding yourself. 

[02 Warhawk]

I relayed the story earlier about a MU recruit from Florida that l actually coached against who committed early on despite having offers from higher division schools. Apparently he had his heart set on MU for awhile. I believe his father? is from the Pittsburgh area and he still has plenty of family up there.....that may have played into it. So it isn't only about kids with no other offers or "the ugly girl waiting for a call on Friday night" as someone posted earlier. Programs like MU, Whitewater, and other high level d3 programs would seem to hold a lot of appeal if finances are not the only concern. Some kids value the opportunity to play in a very successful program, with the same coach for 4 years while getting a high level education. I think it would be wrong for anyone to assume these kids from out of state had no other options. Schools like MU and Whitewater, etc., recruit kids who can play the game as demonstrated by their records.

I agree.  But bringing Mount into the discussion changes things a bit. With all of Mount's monster success and their National Championships, they have the ability to credibly offer the opportunity to win a National Championship.  The other schools, midwest or otherwise, don't have the recent history to do that.  Of all the well chronicled benefits of UW-W (Location, relatively low tuition, No D-II's in state, etc.), NONE is greater benefit than their National Championships.  Yes, a number of players on the team turned down D-II offers (Minnesota D-II schools recruit Wisconsin HARD knowing we don't have D-II's).  I'm guessing in Mount's case, some of the talented Florida players head north willing to endure the cold for a shot at a championship.  And that is the kind of athlete  you want. All in all, it's a nice little cycle to be on.

Relatively low tuition??  In state tuition is less than $7k per year.  Most D3 schools, in addition to having a smaller enrollment than Division I schools (a claim Whitewater can't make), will cost far more than $7k per semester.  JCU is almost $36k per year in tuition alone.  Mount Union is almost $28k.  ONU is $28k.  Compared to most D3 schools, the Wisconsin schools aren't relatively low...they're practically free.

For the record it's $7K a semester....not year. I realize that's still short of the private schools in DIII, but get your facts right.

Also, since when does enrollment size equate to athletic sucess in college? This isn't high school. (Do we really have to have this conversation every 3 months to someone who doesn't know better...it really gets old.    )

Apologies, I misread the cost of attendance, my point stands.  And to say a larger school doesn't translate to athletic success is ludicrous. A larger student body means a larger pool of potential athletes, lower cost of attendance means more potential athletes can afford your university, a larger alumni base means more opportunity for donations and endowments to pay for facilities...if you really don't think there's a correlation between the size of Whitewater and their success in athletics (across the board, not just football), you're kidding yourself.

Do you really think colleges wait until the enrollment process is complete before recruiting their athletes? That's not how it works, this isn't high school. When camp started before the season last year Mount Union had 200 players show up, UWW had 130. When Kickoff comes out later this month, I suspect the numbers to be about the same. The OAC has the luxury of keeping every player that tries out, and let the cream rise to the top. The WIAC has a roster limit so they are forced to cut players. So when it comes to bringing in football players (compared to enrollment size) it really doesn't matter. I.e. Notre Dame football, Duke basketball (small schools for D1 standard). Yes they can give out scholarships...but so can all d1 schools.

Plus I've seen some of the facilities that private schools have...they have no issues with large donations/endowments. Take a look at MHB's stadium...no wonder they call it the cathedral.

As far as tuition, UWW gets some of their best players from Illinois and many parents have personally told me that private schools in IL were cheaper (thanks to private school's tuition assistance) then sending them to UWW and pay out of state tuition. I really doubt that Mount Union is turning athletes away because they can't afford tuition. That's why there's tution assistance programs, financial aid, etc....they make it happen. Just like every school does.

Like bleedpurple said, the big advantage UWW (and most WIAC schools) has is the fact Wisconsin doesn't have any DII football programs in the state to recruit against. Not to mention we have only one D1 football program to speak of. I can't imagine the recruiting nightmare in the state of Ohio. It seems like there's college football programs at every street corner. 

[02 Warhawk]

I understand that it's a convenient (but kind of lazy) argument that UWW has cheap tuition, large enrollment than some schools to thank for its success. But that's a big slap in the face to the administration and coaching staff at UWW who have done a tremendous job of getting the athletic program to where it is now. They are the reason UWW athletics is what it is today.

UWW has had the same enrollment size and (relative) same tution costs for decades now. However, UWW has only excelled in sports the past 10 years thanks to them. I would consider the argument if public schools have been dominating D3 sports since the beginning, but they haven't. As long as Mount Union continues to be Mount Union in D3 football, this is a moot point. I don't see high costs and low enrollment slowing them down anytime soon. Same with NCC, MHB, Linfield, Wabash, Wesley, etc... 

[Toph]

Don't spill your Spotted Cow or choke on your cheese curds, fellows.  No, I am not saying that schools wait til the enrollment process to recruit athletes, but when a school has 12,000 students, the odds of an athlete turning up increase exponentially over a school with 3,000 students. 

Yes, private schools do also have rich donors, JCU probably wouldn't have their football stadium had Don Shula not scratched a check, but again, my point is about the law of averages.  If an average alum donates $300 to his school (some obviously will donate far more, some far less, but I'm just using this number to make a point), a school with a 3,000 member student body will have a distinct disadvantage compared to a school with 12,000.  Perhaps UW alums spend more on sausage and contribute less to their beloved university? 

Yes, there are probably a few out of state students for whom Whitewater (or any other UW school) is a more expensive option, but a quick glance (so don't hold me to it) shows that about 70% of last year's football team came from Wisconsin.  Although an out of state tuition of about $15k is still a bargain (thanks, taxpayers of Wisconsin).

As for Mount (or any private school) turning student athletes away who can't afford tuition, again...you're looking at it too specifically.  It is a hurdle that private schools have that a state school won't have. 

You are also correct about the landscape of Ohio vs. Wisconsin college football.  There are lots of DIII's, several DII's, a couple NAIA, and some lower tier DI (though I don't think there are too many guys who are in between going to a MAC school and Heidelberg, we had a whole discussion on that last year).  In Wisconsin you've got Madison, a few other DI's in basketball, and then the DIII's.  Plus, all the fried cheese and deep fried twinkies you can eat.

So, have a brat and take a breath, fellows.  It's all good.

[wally_wabash]

I understand that it's a convenient (but kind of lazy) argument that UWW has cheap tuition, large enrollment than some schools to thank for its success. But that's a big slap in the face to the administration and coaching staff at UWW who have done a tremendous job of getting the athletic program to where it is now. They are the reason UWW athletics is what it is today.

UWW has had the same enrollment size and (relative) same tution costs for decades now. However, UWW has only excelled in sports the past 10 years thanks to them. I would consider the argument if public schools have been dominating D3 sports since the beginning, but they haven't. As long as Mount Union continues to be Mount Union in D3 football, this is a moot point. I don't see high costs and low enrollment slowing them down anytime soon. Same with NCC, MHB, Linfield, Wabash, Wesley, etc... 

I think it would be just as lazy not to recognize that there are challenges that exist throughout the vast majority of Division III that UWW does not have and that those advantages have not been leveraged to their fullest extent in order to excel as an athletics program.  I don't believe that just anybody can go there and win championships.  There has to be competence, obviously.  But UWW is not just like everybody else in Division III.  Good on UWW for committing to excellence in athletics- that is in no way a bad thing and they should be applauded for what they've done there.  But please don't pretend that they are playing from the same deck of cards as the rest of the division. 

[02 Warhawk]

Don't spill your Spotted Cow or choke on your cheese curds, fellows.  No, I am not saying that schools wait til the enrollment process to recruit athletes, but when a school has 12,000 students, the odds of an athlete turning up increase exponentially over a school with 3,000 students. 

The odds of an athlete turning up increases exponentially when a capable coach is recruiting them in high school. It doesn't hurt that they can flaunt their team's past success. Tuition costs/enrollment sizes aside, success breads success.

I'm still sticking with my point that the numbers of students interested in playing football for private schools are the same (if not larger) than the number of students lined up to play for a public school. Like I said before, just look at he camp sizes. Looks like about 10% of Mount's enrollment shows up at its preseason camp to play football. If UWW had 10% show up, the coaches would have 1000 kids to sort through. Which we all can agree is not the case. Realistically only roughly about 1% of UWW students even consider football an option. The number of kids enrolling at Mount intending to tryout for football is comparable to the number of kids enrolling at UWW intending to try out. Same with the amount getting recruited.

The private vs. public debate has been very exhuasting on these boards and are never resolved...but it keeps us busy until the season kicks off. Best of luck to Mount and the rest of the OAC this fall 

[02 Warhawk]

I understand that it's a convenient (but kind of lazy) argument that UWW has cheap tuition, large enrollment than some schools to thank for its success. But that's a big slap in the face to the administration and coaching staff at UWW who have done a tremendous job of getting the athletic program to where it is now. They are the reason UWW athletics is what it is today.

UWW has had the same enrollment size and (relative) same tution costs for decades now. However, UWW has only excelled in sports the past 10 years thanks to them. I would consider the argument if public schools have been dominating D3 sports since the beginning, but they haven't. As long as Mount Union continues to be Mount Union in D3 football, this is a moot point. I don't see high costs and low enrollment slowing them down anytime soon. Same with NCC, MHB, Linfield, Wabash, Wesley, etc... 

I think it would be just as lazy not to recognize that there are challenges that exist throughout the vast majority of Division III that UWW does not have and that those advantages have not been leveraged to their fullest extent in order to excel as an athletics program.  I don't believe that just anybody can go there and win championships.  There has to be competence, obviously.  But UWW is not just like everybody else in Division III.  Good on UWW for committing to excellence in athletics- that is in no way a bad thing and they should be applauded for what they've done there.  But please don't pretend that they are playing from the same deck of cards as the rest of the division.

I 100% agree. That's why I said the coaching staff gets a lot of the credit. Didn't UWW have the same "advantages" before the 2000's? I don't think they drastically dropped their tuition in 2005 enabling them to start getting all these good athletes.

Yes, it may be a small advantage for UWW that a low-income family is able to send their kid to UWW to play football. But by no means is it one the top reasons for their success.

[LadyBear]

I understand that it's a convenient (but kind of lazy) argument that UWW has cheap tuition, large enrollment than some schools to thank for its success. But that's a big slap in the face to the administration and coaching staff at UWW who have done a tremendous job of getting the athletic program to where it is now. They are the reason UWW athletics is what it is today.

UWW has had the same enrollment size and (relative) same tution costs for decades now. However, UWW has only excelled in sports the past 10 years thanks to them. I would consider the argument if public schools have been dominating D3 sports since the beginning, but they haven't. As long as Mount Union continues to be Mount Union in D3 football, this is a moot point. I don't see high costs and low enrollment slowing them down anytime soon. Same with NCC, MHB, Linfield, Wabash, Wesley, etc... 

I think it would be just as lazy not to recognize that there are challenges that exist throughout the vast majority of Division III that UWW does not have and that those advantages have not been leveraged to their fullest extent in order to excel as an athletics program.  I don't believe that just anybody can go there and win championships.  There has to be competence, obviously.  But UWW is not just like everybody else in Division III.  Good on UWW for committing to excellence in athletics- that is in no way a bad thing and they should be applauded for what they've done there.  But please don't pretend that they are playing from the same deck of cards as the rest of the division.

I have to agree with Wally. I imagine that the UWW success is mixture of these facts; their coaching ability created relationships with regional high school coaches who in turn support their high school players committing to UWW, the fact that geographically UWW is well positioned to exploit the fact that both WI & Mn have only 1 D1 football program each, as well as proximity to Chicago and Detroit metro areas, lastly success breeds success. I am not sure who wrote the statement regarding school enrollment size, but I believe D3 enrollment size has almost nothing to do with the football team's success. This isn't high school where teams are limited to their respective population. I read a couple years ago Notre Dame allowed a kicker to walk-on from their intramural program, but I don't imagine that happens very often if ever in D1 and while it may be more prevalent at the D3 level most of these teams are constituted before the school year even begins.