FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[USee]

Jalen Griffen was listed in the stats vs ONU as a starter. I didn't see the ONU game and can't vouch for any of this. But from the participation report vs ONU the only 3 defensive players not listed from the 22 player two deep are Josh Jones (starter) and Luke Lukowski, Kalem Detellem (both backups). So 19 of the 22 from the two deep played vs ONU. Doesn't seem like a Covid game to me.

I wonder if Griffin started the ONU game in place of someone else??  But like you said, you didn't watch.  Take approx 20% of any teams two-deep out and limit practice for another handful...recipe for an "uh oh" game.

Considering the only starter missing was a corner (Josh Jones) I don't think that's a viable reason they gave up 160 yds rushing to a team that averaged 130 a game. ONU is the highest rated offense besides Johns Hopkins that Mt Union has played. North Central's offense is at another level to either of those. But Mt Union's offense is also at another level to anything NCC has faced to date (but their defense did better against "good offenses"). All just data points.

I am thinking both teams score 32-40 and the team that gets to 42+ wins.

The other starter was at the position that Griffin starts at currently.  Your "data point" in this discussion is incorrect.  You could have used any of the previous seven starting lineups/participation reports as your guidelines as to who was missing.  But you use the starting lineups/participation reports from after the ONU game.  Excellent work by the data-pounder

OK, to clarify, there is one additional difference from before the ONU game, Marcus Saahir started every game up until that point and then didn't play vs ONU and isn't listed in the two deep for Saturday. So that's only 9 starters (one of them a corner) and 19 of the 22 two deep that played against ONU. It's also worth pointing out that the same 19 of 22 that played vs ONU and gave up 160 yds rushing and 35 pts are the same 19 in the two deep this Saturday. Add to that Josh Jones, cornerback, who has since come back from ONU. I don't think my point changes.

[hsbsballcoach7]

I appreciate all the insights to this game Saturday, well done all.

Only commentary I'd like to add is the HOF involvement on Mount's behalf is laughable. That group is so inept, it's sad. Even if the NCAA would entertain the thought, the HOF would find some hilarious way to mess it up and Rocky Pentello would lead the Wilmington Quakers into the game, coached by Dean Paul.

Seen a couple of mentions to the fact that the HOF stadium management might not be as good as one would hope. As a Texan I can't say the group that handled Shenandoah put their best foot forward but I can't say I truly noticed come game time. I was expecting the Canton experience to be pretty good for the players but I take it that might not be correct?

The Pro Football Hall of Fame Village and the use of Tom Benson Stadium are quite different IMO. The stadium just finished holding 7 state championship football games in a weekend.  They hold events very well.

Now the Hall of Fame Village is a different story... I own stock in this and watch it closely.  They've changed many things from the original plans and can be disorganized at times,  but I believe in the final product and making money. Just my 2 cents...

With the weather forecast (40s by game time with rain showers and wind up to 20-30mph), this could affect both teams.  With Mount's special teams struggles and offensive inconsistencies,  it concerns me... but they've found a way each week to come through and that means something to me.  Can't wait for this matchup!

[Gregory Sager]

Jalen Griffen was listed in the stats vs ONU as a starter. I didn't see the ONU game and can't vouch for any of this. But from the participation report vs ONU the only 3 defensive players not listed from the 22 player two deep are Josh Jones (starter) and Luke Lukowski, Kalem Detellem (both backups). So 19 of the 22 from the two deep played vs ONU. Doesn't seem like a Covid game to me.

I wonder if Griffin started the ONU game in place of someone else??  But like you said, you didn't watch.  Take approx 20% of any teams two-deep out and limit practice for another handful...recipe for an "uh oh" game.

Considering the only starter missing was a corner (Josh Jones) I don't think that's a viable reason they gave up 160 yds rushing to a team that averaged 130 a game. ONU is the highest rated offense besides Johns Hopkins that Mt Union has played. North Central's offense is at another level to either of those. But Mt Union's offense is also at another level to anything NCC has faced to date (but their defense did better against "good offenses"). All just data points.

I am thinking both teams score 32-40 and the team that gets to 42+ wins.

The other starter was at the position that Griffin starts at currently.  Your "data point" in this discussion is incorrect.  You could have used any of the previous seven starting lineups/participation reports as your guidelines as to who was missing.  But you use the starting lineups/participation reports from after the ONU game.  Excellent work by the data-pounder

Um, fanboy, the phrase "quit while you're behind" leaps to mind here.

[D3fanboy]

Jalen Griffen was listed in the stats vs ONU as a starter. I didn't see the ONU game and can't vouch for any of this. But from the participation report vs ONU the only 3 defensive players not listed from the 22 player two deep are Josh Jones (starter) and Luke Lukowski, Kalem Detellem (both backups). So 19 of the 22 from the two deep played vs ONU. Doesn't seem like a Covid game to me.

I wonder if Griffin started the ONU game in place of someone else??  But like you said, you didn't watch.  Take approx 20% of any teams two-deep out and limit practice for another handful...recipe for an "uh oh" game.

Considering the only starter missing was a corner (Josh Jones) I don't think that's a viable reason they gave up 160 yds rushing to a team that averaged 130 a game. ONU is the highest rated offense besides Johns Hopkins that Mt Union has played. North Central's offense is at another level to either of those. But Mt Union's offense is also at another level to anything NCC has faced to date (but their defense did better against "good offenses"). All just data points.

I am thinking both teams score 32-40 and the team that gets to 42+ wins.

The other starter was at the position that Griffin starts at currently.  Your "data point" in this discussion is incorrect.  You could have used any of the previous seven starting lineups/participation reports as your guidelines as to who was missing.  But you use the starting lineups/participation reports from after the ONU game.  Excellent work by the data-pounder

Um, fanboy, the phrase "quit while you're behind" leaps to mind here.

there were a few other phrases that leapt to mind.  Using the Mount game notes for "data" is your prerogative.  Case in point is Mount DT Duke Hill being listed at 225.  But the data guys haven't watched a game, so how would you know

[USee]

Duke Hill is clearly heavier than 225. I would guess closer to 250. I have seen that. Feel free to counter any points I made. (by the way 3 missing out of 22 is only 14%. And 1 out of 11 is 9%).

[Gregory Sager]

Jalen Griffen was listed in the stats vs ONU as a starter. I didn't see the ONU game and can't vouch for any of this. But from the participation report vs ONU the only 3 defensive players not listed from the 22 player two deep are Josh Jones (starter) and Luke Lukowski, Kalem Detellem (both backups). So 19 of the 22 from the two deep played vs ONU. Doesn't seem like a Covid game to me.

I wonder if Griffin started the ONU game in place of someone else??  But like you said, you didn't watch.  Take approx 20% of any teams two-deep out and limit practice for another handful...recipe for an "uh oh" game.

Considering the only starter missing was a corner (Josh Jones) I don't think that's a viable reason they gave up 160 yds rushing to a team that averaged 130 a game. ONU is the highest rated offense besides Johns Hopkins that Mt Union has played. North Central's offense is at another level to either of those. But Mt Union's offense is also at another level to anything NCC has faced to date (but their defense did better against "good offenses"). All just data points.

I am thinking both teams score 32-40 and the team that gets to 42+ wins.

The other starter was at the position that Griffin starts at currently.  Your "data point" in this discussion is incorrect.  You could have used any of the previous seven starting lineups/participation reports as your guidelines as to who was missing.  But you use the starting lineups/participation reports from after the ONU game.  Excellent work by the data-pounder

Um, fanboy, the phrase "quit while you're behind" leaps to mind here.

there were a few other phrases that leapt to mind.  Using the Mount game notes for "data" is your prerogative.  Case in point is Mount DT Duke Hill being listed at 225.  But the data guys haven't watched a game, so how would you know

That's a nice attempt at deflection, tossing in a bit about an exaggeration in a player's listed weight as an analogy to buttress your argument. The problem is that this isn't about weight fluctuations or exaggerations or whatever. It's about game participation, which involves empirical data. There's no guesswork and no fudging involved; either a player appeared in a game or he didn't. And either a player started or he didn't.

If this was a boxing match, we could talk about listed weights as being empirical data, because boxing matches are preceded by public weigh-ins to ensure that a boxer is within specific parameters for his weight class. But it isn't. It's football, and football weights are nothing more than ballpark guesses this deep into the season, if indeed they were ever legit to begin with.

[WRMUalum13]

Jalen Griffen was listed in the stats vs ONU as a starter. I didn't see the ONU game and can't vouch for any of this. But from the participation report vs ONU the only 3 defensive players not listed from the 22 player two deep are Josh Jones (starter) and Luke Lukowski, Kalem Detellem (both backups). So 19 of the 22 from the two deep played vs ONU. Doesn't seem like a Covid game to me.

I wonder if Griffin started the ONU game in place of someone else??  But like you said, you didn't watch.  Take approx 20% of any teams two-deep out and limit practice for another handful...recipe for an "uh oh" game.

Considering the only starter missing was a corner (Josh Jones) I don't think that's a viable reason they gave up 160 yds rushing to a team that averaged 130 a game. ONU is the highest rated offense besides Johns Hopkins that Mt Union has played. North Central's offense is at another level to either of those. But Mt Union's offense is also at another level to anything NCC has faced to date (but their defense did better against "good offenses"). All just data points.

I am thinking both teams score 32-40 and the team that gets to 42+ wins.

The other starter was at the position that Griffin starts at currently.  Your "data point" in this discussion is incorrect.  You could have used any of the previous seven starting lineups/participation reports as your guidelines as to who was missing.  But you use the starting lineups/participation reports from after the ONU game.  Excellent work by the data-pounder

Um, fanboy, the phrase "quit while you're behind" leaps to mind here.

there were a few other phrases that leapt to mind.  Using the Mount game notes for "data" is your prerogative.  Case in point is Mount DT Duke Hill being listed at 225.  But the data guys haven't watched a game, so how would you know

That's a nice attempt at deflection, tossing in a bit about an exaggeration in a player's listed weight as an analogy to buttress your argument. The problem is that this isn't about weight fluctuations or exaggerations or whatever. It's about game participation, which involves empirical data. There's no guesswork and no fudging involved; either a player appeared in a game or he didn't. And either a player started or he didn't.

If this was a boxing match, we could talk about listed weights as being empirical data, because boxing matches are preceded by weigh-ins to ensure that a boxer is within specific parameters for his weight class. But it isn't. It's football, and football weights are nothing more than ballpark guesses this deep into the season, if indeed they were ever legit to begin with.

Yeah, player participation is recorded by people who are watching the game, they record the numbers of what players made plays. Unless Mount Union made a bunch of jersey substitutions the stats are accurate.

Player heights and weights are likely provided by players themselves or coaching staffs, and probably just estimate... kinda like you do at the DMV

[Stagg Again!!]

I appreciate all the insights to this game Saturday, well done all.

Only commentary I'd like to add is the HOF involvement on Mount's behalf is laughable. That group is so inept, it's sad. Even if the NCAA would entertain the thought, the HOF would find some hilarious way to mess it up and Rocky Pentello would lead the Wilmington Quakers into the game, coached by Dean Paul.

Seen a couple of mentions to the fact that the HOF stadium management might not be as good as one would hope. As a Texan I can't say the group that handled Shenandoah put their best foot forward but I can't say I truly noticed come game time. I was expecting the Canton experience to be pretty good for the players but I take it that might not be correct?

The Pro Football Hall of Fame Village and the use of Tom Benson Stadium are quite different IMO. The stadium just finished holding 7 state championship football games in a weekend.  They hold events very well.

Now the Hall of Fame Village is a different story... I own stock in this and watch it closely.  They've changed many things from the original plans and can be disorganized at times,  but I believe in the final product and making money. Just my 2 cents...

With the weather forecast (40s by game time with rain showers and wind up to 20-30mph), this could affect both teams.  With Mount's special teams struggles and offensive inconsistencies,  it concerns me... but they've found a way each week to come through and that means something to me.  Can't wait for this matchup!

The last two matchups were both ESPN Classics... hoping for a similar battle in Alliance (aka Naperville-East) this weekend.

[edward de vere]

FOR NCC, WWW, UMHB FANS CHRISTMAS SHOPPING FOR MUC57:

https://shop.petittigardencenter.com/products/389/mount-union-championship-sled-ornament-8185.html

(Or beer. Either one.) 

(Or both.)

[SpartanHouse]

Mount Union followers....Mount has done a nice job over the years recruiting, retaining and turning Florida kids into their best players.

Any idea what they are doing to achieve that? The program I Foles gets loads of Florida kids but rarely do they make it.

[kiko]

I am thoroughly enjoying the spectacle of USee employing his usual data-pounding (quite effectively, I might add) on behalf of his alma mater's mortal enemy.

Makes me a little uneasy, tbh.

I kinda assumed his account got hacked by someone who weirdly happens to be a big D3 fan rather than a Bitcoin ransomer...

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

Mount Union followers....Mount has done a nice job over the years recruiting, retaining and turning Florida kids into their best players.

Any idea what they are doing to achieve that? The program I Foles gets loads of Florida kids but rarely do they make it.

Not sure on the retention part. I am a HS coach in FL.  For the recruiting part, each year there are a string of Small College Recruiting Fairs in FL.  They start in Late January in Southern FL and move up the state.  In the Tampa Area it is usually around Valentines Day.  Mount Union has been coming to this for the past 10+ years.

I've not sent any players to Mount Union, but a couple have gone there from my county and neither stayed for different reasons.

In the past, there was not any Small College Football in FL so there was TONS of talent not going to play college ball.  There are no true JuCo Football teams in FL.  There are a few "club" teams that are made up of kids who have to be taking JuCo classes, but not true School Based Teams.

There are now a handful (Warner, Webber, Southeastern, Ave Maria, St. Thomas, and Kaiser) NAIA Football playing schools in FL, so there are now options for FL players who are not D1-D2 type players.

The Retention part is the key.  I've seen numerous players go North to play football, only to return after a semester or year.  The usual reasons are homesick, don't like the cold, or say they weren't getting playing time (but I suspect they thought they would just join a team and start right away).

[rscl70]

To pick up on D3fanboy's post: I did the same exercise and came up with 8 players on the Offensive Two Deep and 5 on the Defensive Two Deep who did not play against ONU.  Add in the Punter and that's a total of 14 top players not participating.

I'll add this one post then say no more about it, as this is like being in a pissing fight with a skunk.  The above quote is from a post I made after the ONU game.  To be on Mount's two deep is to get a lot of playing time as they substitute freely.  Mount was missing 8 players on Offense and 5 on Defense out of the two deep. ( How many threes or fours they may have been missing I have no idea.)  If I still had my notes I'd name those 13, but I don't and I'm not interested in repeating the exercise.  The absence of these players definitely  effected Mount's play against ONU. Anyone who follows the Raiders knows that.  End of discussion (at least as far as I'm concerned.)

[USee]

To pick up on D3fanboy's post: I did the same exercise and came up with 8 players on the Offensive Two Deep and 5 on the Defensive Two Deep who did not play against ONU.  Add in the Punter and that's a total of 14 top players not participating.

I'll add this one post then say no more about it, as this is like being in a pissing fight with a skunk.  The above quote is from a post I made after the ONU game.  To be on Mount's two deep is to get a lot of playing time as they substitute freely.  Mount was missing 8 players on Offense and 5 on Defense out of the two deep. ( How many threes or fours they may have been missing I have no idea.)  If I still had my notes I'd name those 13, but I don't and I'm not interested in repeating the exercise.  The absence of these players definitely  effected Mount's play against ONU. Anyone who follows the Raiders knows that.  End of discussion (at least as far as I'm concerned.)

Hmmm. Interesting. I'm not sure why there is so much emotion around this for Mt Union posters. Admittedly I didn't look at the offensive side of the ball as I didn't think scoring 42 points was as much of a factor as allowing 35 and 160 and the initial question (which I didn't bring up) was raised about missing players on defense. Upon a simple review it appears there were 8 offensive players not in the participation report and only one starter, OL Max Craig. So 7 of those offensive players were backups (4 of them were OL) as Ben Lilly started in place of Max Craig. The other three were WR Ulice Gillard (9 games 26 rec for the year), Zayir Keen (4 games 7 catches) and WR Robby Kirchner (11 games 4 catches).

The 4 missing players on the defensive 2 deep were starting CB Josh Jones, Starting LB Marcus Saahir and backup LB Kaleb Detellem and DL Luke Lukowski.

The 4 defensive players definitely would have had an impact on the game as Detellem and Lukowski are regular rotational players. Marcus Saahir was presumably injured in the Heidleberg game as he started 7 games through that one and hasn't appeared since.

I'm sure everyone can understand the focus on this game as it's the only close game on Mt Unions schedule in the regular season (and one of only a few over a couple decades), it was against a top 25 offense, and given they are gonna play a decent offense this week that seems to like to run the ball, many of us outsiders (remember I am not a fan of NCC or Mt Union) are interested in what happened back then. And besides, no one else is posing anything interesting this week so why not.

I did learn that Josh Petrucelli is the backup punter and a decent one at that, averaging 42 yards a punt in that ONU game.

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

To pick up on D3fanboy's post: I did the same exercise and came up with 8 players on the Offensive Two Deep and 5 on the Defensive Two Deep who did not play against ONU.  Add in the Punter and that's a total of 14 top players not participating.

I'll add this one post then say no more about it, as this is like being in a pissing fight with a skunk.  The above quote is from a post I made after the ONU game.  To be on Mount's two deep is to get a lot of playing time as they substitute freely.  Mount was missing 8 players on Offense and 5 on Defense out of the two deep. ( How many threes or fours they may have been missing I have no idea.)  If I still had my notes I'd name those 13, but I don't and I'm not interested in repeating the exercise.  The absence of these players definitely  effected Mount's play against ONU. Anyone who follows the Raiders knows that.  End of discussion (at least as far as I'm concerned.)

Hmmm. Interesting. I'm not sure why there is so much emotion around this for Mt Union posters. Admittedly I didn't look at the offensive side of the ball as I didn't think scoring 42 points was as much of a factor as allowing 35 and 160 and the initial question (which I didn't bring up) was raised about missing players on defense. Upon a simple review it appears there were 8 offensive players not in the participation report and only one starter, OL Max Craig. So 7 of those offensive players were backups (4 of them were OL) as Ben Lilly started in place of Max Craig. The other three were WR Ulice Gillard (9 games 26 rec for the year), Zayir Keen (4 games 7 catches) and WR Robby Kirchner (11 games 4 catches).

The 4 missing players on the defensive 2 deep were starting CB Josh Jones, Starting LB Marcus Saahir and backup LB Kaleb Detellem and DL Luke Lukowski.

The 4 defensive players definitely would have had an impact on the game as Detellem and Lukowski are regular rotational players. Marcus Saahir was presumably injured in the Heidleberg game as he started 7 games through that one and hasn't appeared since.

I'm sure everyone can understand the focus on this game as it's the only close game on Mt Unions schedule in the regular season (and one of only a few over a couple decades), it was against a top 25 offense, and given they are gonna play a decent offense this week that seems to like to run the ball, many of us outsiders (remember I am not a fan of NCC or Mt Union) are interested in what happened back then. And besides, no one else is posing anything interesting this week so why not.

I did learn that Josh Petrucelli is the backup punter and a decent one at that, averaging 42 yards a punt in that ONU game.

One thing to note is that someone posted back in the thread is that players may have missed practice that week due to having to quaruntine until they had two negative Covid Tests.  I'm not sure how much that affected the ONU Game, but could have had an impact.