FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[DarkSide-D]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Saintsfan.  I confused the probation with suspension, or whatever it would be called, I guess.

[runyr]

Mr. T would say, I pity the poor fool that plays Northern on Saturday.  

hscoach's 35.5 pts to Muskies don't seem enough now against P-Bears.  

[formerd3db]

Of course the intent is to deter further misdoings - that's obvious.  The one possible better solution would be to impose a substantial fine on the schools that are caught knowingly doing something illegal, plus some sort of penalty that would follow a coach around to his next job plus suspension for the players involved IF they still have eligability and are on the team rather than penalize innocent players who had nothing to do with the infractions.

Although I'm sure some will say that imposing a lareg monetary fine on a school could end up causing the school to drop their program and also that penalties following coaches to the next job might not be enforceable if that coach doesn't continue coaching elsewhere, which happens more often at DIII level than others perhaps.  Yet, if administration and/or coaches knowingly violate the rules, these measures would not be inappropriate, rather than penalizing innocent players on the team.  On the other hand, perhaps it should be mandetory that players be more familiar with NCAA rules.  The schools I've been involved with go over those rules at the beginning of the year; the problem is then with players who still knowingly would violate rules as has been seen many times at DI.

But I agree with all of you that the NCAA gets a big "F" for grade on this as they definately dropped the ball (pun intended ) by delaying this - just because ONU may have had their own investigation going on is not excuse - they could have done theirs at the same time.  Anyway, these are just some additonal thoughts on this.  The NCAA is going to do what they please and that's a "crock".  Unfortunately, though, if you want to play with the NCAA (i.e. schools retaining membership) you have to endure this kind ridiculousness regardless of whether you agree with the rules or not.  Otherwise, schools can get out, but the other choice(s) are not that great if you know what I mean.

[seventiesraider]

You know, Scotty is just looney enough he could be, dare I say, Kaz in disguise. I've be wondering what ever happened to him.

[SaintsFAN]

formerd3db,

I doubt a kid would have skipped these practices just because it was a violation of the rules.  I am sure it was understood that if you wanted to be a contributor on the 2003 team, then you had to be there.  Right or wrong, if a kid wants to play he'll do what the coaches instruct them to do. 

I do see the merits of everyone understanding the rules---as I think this was Kaz's "reason" why this whole thing went on.  Obviously the NCAA sees the importance of this as well because the current staff has to attend some kind of seminar in the next year..

As I see it, Kaz is the guilty party here.  He's gotten away without any penalty because he no longer has anything to do with the NCAA.

[reality check]

Saintsfan

To say Kaz got away without penalty is a bit short-sighted though.  He spent 17 seasons building up ONU's program from one that was lucky to win two games a year, to a top ten caliber team.  All that went away and his tenure is forever tarnished in an instant.   I think losing your job and walking away the bad guy is a penalty whether it was a direct penalty imposed by the NCAA or otherwise.  You may say it's not penalty enough but 17 years went down the drain in a couple of days.  The fact that he hasn't been coaching elsewhere shows you he has paid a price. 

[jdean]

With the picture I think the NCAA painted, its a penalty
well deserved for the former coach. 17 years went down the drain because he knowingly ignored and disobeyed the
rules and pulled a Nixon trying to cover it up. No scapegoats, no excuses--its all on him.
Unfortunately he took the program down with him 2 yrs later, when they had a chance to make the school proud.
There is no good news in Mudville--none.

[Mr. Ypsi]

There is really a very simple solution to misconduct by coaches (though I can't swear it would pass legal challenges): when the misconduct was CLEARLY by a coach, any college who hires him (or her) immediately ALSO takes on the NCAA penalty in place of the previous school.

To me, this is so obvious, can anyone explain what I am missing?

Sure, there should be SOME continuing penalty for the school that failed to rein in the coach, but why should athletes who had NOTHING to do with the situation be left paying the price?  I'll also use a Michigan example (since I, too, am a Michigander): I'm sure Steve Fisher IS paying a price being head-coach at San Diego St instead of Michigan, but he was still making MUCHO bucks, while the players he recruited paid the price for his criminal behavior.

Schools should pay a price for 'lack of institutional control', but the DIRECT villains should pay a greater price (and LATER INNOCENT athletes should not be left holding the bag).

I can support the sanctions at ONU ONLY if 'Kaz' has been permanently banned from the NCAA, and even then I will have to hold my nose.

[Pat Coleman]

Now, see, the NCAA chose to do this with the Baylor men's basketball situation -- anyone who hires the person in the next 10 years must go through some extra hoops with the NCAA.

There was no announcement of any such sanction here.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Yeah, Pat, that does give SOME hope  :

But any coach who would try to frame a murder victim as a drug dealer to try to save his sorry butt is so beyond the pale that he wouldn't be hired by any school anyway.  At least I sure as hell hope not!  Has the NCAA ever REALLY penalized a coach (instead of the future athletes of his [hopefully] former school)?

There are hundreds of examples of coaches continuing on elsewhere (sometimes at INCREASED salaries) after misconduct which put a school on probation (thus hurting athletes who never even MET that coach).  Are there ANY cases of a coach being directly sanctioned?  I'm sure there are many whose careers have ended because no one wanted to hire such an a**hole, but has the NCAA directly EVER ended such an a**hole's career?  Because I'm sure there are thousands of (innocent) seniors by now whose careers were ended by such sanctions.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Just in case anyone took my previous post as a rant against coaches, I have been a youth soccer coach for the last ten years, and have nearly infinite respect for good coaches.  BECAUSE we sometimes have an almost Svengali influence on those we coach, we DO have an extra burden of ethics.

Aside from the miscreant coaches I ranted about on the last post, can anyone explain to me why a coach can break a contract and immediately coach somewhere else, but an athlete must sit out a year before playing for another school?  I realize this is more a d1 issue than d3, but it is not entirely outside our realm.  The coach can coach immediately, but the player cannot play immediately.  Can anyone explain this to me???

I REALIZE that the intent is to prevent tampering (or 'athletic looting' in Myles Brand's ill-chosen, but apt, words), but most, if not all, of those coaching changes come while the coach is still under contract (and SUPPOSEDLY doing his best to recruit for his CURRENT team).

Is there any ethical difference between the student who switches and the coach who switches?  I'd say YES - the student who switches is MUCH less culpable, since they were a victim of 'bait and switch'.  One would WISH that they signed on SOLELY because of the college, but realistically, as a recruited athlete, they (also) signed on because of the coach.  Where, exactly. is the fairness if the coach can move (from college A to college B and coach immediately), while our student-athlete has the choice of playing for college A (for a coach he may never have even met), or sit out a year to play with original coach's college B (or some other college C)?  Can ANYONE justify this set-up?

[frank uible]

Ypsi: What gets in the way of your proposal is the law! Not only is the scheme legally unenforceable but also would expose the NCAA and the involved colleges to possible criminal and almost certain civil liability, including trebling of any monetary damages to the coach, for violation of the anti-trust laws.

[SaintsFAN]

reality check,

I understand your point.  Didn't look at it that way....

[l39eagle]

Kudos to whomever wrote the Daily Dose article,"Slow Justice is No Justice."
As a Bear fan  when I started getting calls Tuesday night in regard to this debacle, I was stunned.  Like so many others I was under the opinion that this whole thing had been put to bed a year ago, how wrong!
Kaz not only knowingly broke the rules pertaining to practice, but more importantly, he violated the trust that a student-athlete places in his coach.  Additionally, intead of being man enough to take responsibility for his actions, he tried to coerce players and coaches to lie to cover his transgressions.  Unforgivable!!!
As to the punishment doled out by the NCAA, does anyone else smell something "fishy" here.  The problems occurred prior to the start of the 2003 season.  Here we are 2 games into the 2005 season and the Bears receive a post-season ban?  I'm sure the legal process had to unfold, but come on, this was pretty cut and dried.  Why not take away some spring sessions in 2004 or training camp time in 2004, or even spring sessions in 2005, or even some training camp time in 2005?  The timing of this leaves me to believe that someone, who knows, maybe Kaz, was waiting for the right to time push the buttons to get this thing started.  Last year, a new head coach and the Bears were flying under the radar, and post-season play really wasn't much of a consideration early on.  (wouldn't it have been ironic if the Bears had beat B-W in the second game, finished 9-1 and gotten a play-off bid.  They could have played in the play-offs last year and been banned this year for a 2003 incident? interesting)  This year, there was alot of talk of post-season potential, and this is when the legal process really started rolling.  Something doesn't seem right with the timing.
As to the kids, the juniors and  seniors have paid the price.  They are on their 3rd head coach in 4 years.  In 2003 they were a top 10 team early and promptly went 0-5.  If it wasn't for Stacey Hairston they may not even have had a 2003 season.  And the NCAA in all their infinite wisdom decided now to play the playoff ban card when the majority of coaches and players from 2003 are gone.  The wrong people are paying the price.
Regarding the play-offs, with or without the possibility of a play-off spot, the Bears have to win games, and we all know week to week in this conference, unless you are Mount, nothing is a given.  The Bears have 2 road games coming up, one with JCU, they have to beat a feisty Otterbein team, and still go to Mount followed with a home game against Cap the next week.  The road ain't easy regardless.  The distraction of this whole mess is more of a problem right now in the present.  All the Bears can do is go play and not worry about those things that are out of their control.

[pios]

I know the main issues here are with what Kaz did, but there was still another infraction last season that may have prompted the NCAA to do what they have done.  I don't  think what happened last season under Coach Paul is anywhere near what happened under Kaz.  However, there was still a rules violation and it happend in other sports as well (the women's golfer).  My question here is, since there were similar infractions by more than one team, ineligible players due to their enrollment, should the college be penalized and not just the football team, because they are ultimately the ones who should be responsible for the enrollment of their athletes?  It seems the whole athletic department should be held accountable here.  I know you can't take scholarships or anything of the like here, but to single out the football squad two years later is untimely by the NCAA.  However, if you compare it to the incidents that happen at the D1 level, those penalties also come in untimely manners.  I am not supporting the NCAA here, but they usually don't respond to infractions during the next season.