FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[Desertraider]

OU#25,

I don't think any informed observer has ever thought the OAC was a one-team conference (after all, you nearly always also get a Pool C team).  Most would probably even say that the top half of the OAC is usually better than the top half of the WIAC.

But in comparing conferences, you gotta compare entire conferences.  The WIAC rarely has a team as weak as Heidi, Musky, Wilma, or 'etta usually are.  That is the difference (at least in my opinion).

BINGO. 

I strongly support the opinion that the WIAC is the #1 conference as a whole because of their bottom.   In most years, the bottom of the OAC is absolutely horrible.  And I mean horrible on par with the NCAC or PAC.  Now take just the top 4 or 5 teams and I'd like the OAC's chances against any other conference in the nation, but not at the bottom.

I was out of town and missed this one. It seems to me that even if Mount's games are "closer" against other OAC teams than in previous years very few take it as the conference getting better - most see it as Mount starting to come back to earth.  I mean the tenor of the posts upon the realization that Mount has only shutout 1 OAC opponent this year isn't "wow - the OAC is tough!". Instead we ask "what's wrong with Mount's D". Then again it's Mount - where a perceived chink in the armor makes ESPN (the loss to ONU).

[PurpleSuit]

it's Mount-Wilmington week and no chatter?  whats the deal?

[bushman]

Wilma ain't what she use to be, that's for sure.

[Knightstalker]

Wilma ain't what she use to be, that's for sure.

Betty is still looking pretty good though.

[rscl70]

OU#25,

I don't think any informed observer has ever thought the OAC was a one-team conference (after all, you nearly always also get a Pool C team).  Most would probably even say that the top half of the OAC is usually better than the top half of the WIAC.

But in comparing conferences, you gotta compare entire conferences.  The WIAC rarely has a team as weak as Heidi, Musky, Wilma, or 'etta usually are.  That is the difference (at least in my opinion).

I agree with you Ypsi, when comparing conferences in their entirety then the WIAC would have to be the stronger conference, and likewise, the upper half of the OAC might be slightly better than the same top half of WIAC.  However, i find it abit hard to compare conferences on a level playing field. Its more like comparing apples and oranges when the WIAC has 60,000+ student enrollment compared to the OAC having just over 20,000. The enrollment of Eau-Claire and Oshkosh alone exceeds all the OAC combined! Even the largest OAC enrollment, assuming its BW at 3400+, is well under the UW-Platteville or UW-River Falls both just over 5000. There might be some legitimacy to moving to D2 when you start pushing the sizes these schools are chiming in with! JMO  Makes me wonder what LK would do with those numbers to work with at Mount.  

Student enrollment is relevant ONLY if you assume that colleges select their teams by open tryouts from the student body (as is typical for most high schools - except those that blatantly recruit!).  This is obviously not the case for (most) college sports teams.  Aside from the rare 'true' walkon, coaches recruit their 10, 25, 80 (depending on sport and school) players, and the other 500, 1500, 25000 other students are utterly irrelevant to the team's success. 

Give me the right 40 recruits and I'll win the d1 national title with a student body of 40!

Enrollment is not as big of a deal as tuition. The Wisconsin schools have tuitions that are FAR less than those of the OAC, NCAC, or almost any conference you pick. 

That is almost an immeasurable fact when recruiting.

I was commenting only on the enrollment post.  Davidson is d1 in basketball, and may be smaller than any OAC school (I haven't checked for sure).

I do NOT want to get into a public vs. private debate (it has been beaten to death on many boards - each category has its pluses and minuses).  Just note that there can be a huge difference between list price and final cost - with grants (NOT loans, grants), I know a number of people who got private school educations for less than they would have paid at a public school.  Not the norm, I'll concede, but it happens.

(And, FWIW, I'm a fan of IWU, which I believe is the most expensive 'list price' school in the CCIW; I am NOT defending the WIAC, per se! )

Colgate with an enrollment of 2700 is D1 in all sports.

[jam40jeff]

Colgate with an enrollment of 2700 is D1 in all sports.

A school is associated with a division.  You cannot be Division III in football, but Division I in basketball.

[BoBo]

Colgate with an enrollment of 2700 is D1 in all sports.

A school is associated with a division.  You cannot be Division III in football, but Division I in basketball.

Johns Hopkins is Division 1 in Lacrosse, D3 in other sports,
Colorado College was D3 in football (when they had the team) and D1 in Hockey.
There are others, too.

It's called the Grandfather Clause.

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

Colgate with an enrollment of 2700 is D1 in all sports.

A school is associated with a division.  You cannot be Division III in football, but Division I in basketball.

I think there are some exceptions with some East Coast teams with Lacrosse and Hockey.

EDIT:  BoBo beat me to it.

[jam40jeff]

Yes, but going forward, schools must be one or the other.  So when the inevitable "Mount Union should switch divisions" discussion is once again brought up, people should understand that they would be suggesting that Mount Union switch divisions in all sports.

[frank uible]

A d3 college does not have to switch divisions to play a certain minority of its football games outside of d3.

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

Let's not start this discussion again.  Please scroll back through the pages to see the past discussions on it.

No one locally (DII or non-OAC DIII) wants to play MUC.  No upside for them.  If they win, they should of, if they lose, then hurts recruiting or playoff chances.

Soooooo Tired.............

[jam40jeff]

I think OSU should be happy with a victory over MUC right now.

[MUCheats]

You guys are both sort of right.  Any Division III school can have one "showcase" program (one male sport, one female sport) that plays at the Division I level.  Two points, however.  First, except for the 8 or so grandfathered schools' programs (Hopkins lacrosse, Colorado College hockey the most notable examples), these schools cannot offer scholarships.  And second, a Division III school cannot offer a Division I program in the revenue-generating sports, which are basketball (mens and womens) and football.  So for example, Mount Union could not move to Division II for football unless it moved its entire athletic department to Division II.  However, Mount Union could start up a lacrosse team, place it in Division I, and compete at that level, but it wouldn't be able to offer scholarships.

[jam40jeff]

Nice first post, thanks for the information.  If I had the capability I would +K you.

[MUCheats]

In regards to John Carroll leaving the OAC, I don't see that happening.  First off, why would JCU want to leave the OAC?  Does the school style itself as being a better academic institution then its peers in the OAC?  Perhaps, but reality is that even with the NCAC or PAC, neither conference is a good institutional fit for JCU.  Sure, each of those conferences has a number of high quality academic institutions, but they're mostly liberal arts schools, while JCU is a regional-master's type of school (like most OAC schools are).  The PAC's current lineup is mostly Western/Central Pennsylvania liberal arts schools, and JCU really doesn't fit that mold.  The NCAC is mostly Ohio schools, but again, they're of the smaller liberal arts variety.  But beyond all of that, I doubt the NCAC would be interested in JCU, and although Carroll was a charter member of the PAC, I'm not sure they'd have any interest, either.

The truth is that if John Carroll were looking to join its true peers (like Canisius, Creighton, Xavier, Detroit-Mercy), it should make the jump to Division I.  However that's a difficult process and it this point it probably doesn't make sense to deal with all the things the NCAA requires to make such a move.  It's something they should have done years ago, but oh well.  At this point, with JCU athletics remaining at the DIII level, the OAC is a decent fit, and probably as good as they're going to find.