FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[formerd3db]

Colgate with an enrollment of 2700 is D1 in all sports.

A school is associated with a division.  You cannot be Division III in football, but Division I in basketball.

Johns Hopkins is Division 1 in Lacrosse, D3 in other sports,
Colorado College was D3 in football (when they had the team) and D1 in Hockey.
There are others, too.

It's called the Grandfather Clause.

BoBo:

Also referred to as "The Dayton Rule" re: University of Dayton when they originally dropped to DIII in football, yet kept their other sports at DI level.

Let's not start this discussion again.  Please scroll back through the pages to see the past discussions on it.

No one locally (DII or non-OAC DIII) wants to play MUC.  No upside for them.  If they win, they should of, if they lose, then hurts recruiting or playoff chances.

Soooooo Tired.............

kirasdad:

I understand what you mean, however, allow me to add this, if I may.  Many of these new posters i.e. these young(er) guys don't know this history and, while those discussions have occurred several times over recent years, trying to scroll back over the very numerous posts on this and over many back pages is not easy and very time consuming (although one might easily argue that if we all have that much time to be on here anyway, we have enough to scroll back all that way!   So perhaps we can all "bite the bullet"and relate the basic info as brief and as tolerant as we can , like you already nicely did.

[oldtiger]

U.D was pissed it was not eligible for the DIII playoffs in 1977, the year they dropped from DI. They had at least 3 classes on scholarship and DI facilities, including a complete room of Nautilus equipment for FB which was state-of-the-art at the time.

Never understood why they were fine for about 15 years and then deemed to have an unfair advantage.

[MUCheats]

I think the grandfather clause and the Dayton rule are two separate, but related, rulings.

Dayton, and a few other schools (like Georgetown) were essentially booted out of DIII football in 1990 or 1991.  I can't speak for Georgetown, but I do know that Dayton's only DIII program at the time was football.  I would assume that the Hoyas were the same.

The grandfather clause was something that came about in 2004 or 2005.  It affected Hopkins, CC, and a few other DIII schools that had DI "showcase" scholarship programs.  There was to be a ruling that would have forced all schools to compete at the same level in all sports.  These schools put forward an alternative plan that would allow them to remain in DIII and keep their DI showcase programs, and give the same opportunity to all other schools.  The idea was that this would be a fair compromise, though I'm not sure that it is.

Part of the reason why Dayton and Georgetown were kicked out of Division III football was because they had other high-profile athletics programs (basketball, in particular) that created an unfair revenue stream and publicity that smaller DIII schools could not compete with.  That makes sense.  However, when one takes a look at Hopkins' scholarship lacrosse program, and to a lesser extent, Colorado College's scholarship hockey program, are not the same unfair advantages in place?  During the spring, Hopkins' lacrosse team is on national television just about every weekend and it is consistently competing for a national title.  I've heard some even say that the revenues created by Hopkins lacrosse is more than enough to fund their entire athletic program.  In essence, Hopkins lacrosse in the 2000s isn't much different than Dayton or Georgetown basketball in the early 1990s.  And other Division III schools don't even have the opportunity to try to compete on a level playing field with Hopkins, because if other DIII schools want to have a showcase athletic program in DI, they still can't offer scholarships. 

[Knightstalker]

I think the grandfather clause and the Dayton rule are two separate, but related, rulings.

Dayton, and a few other schools (like Georgetown) were essentially booted out of DIII football in 1990 or 1991.  I can't speak for Georgetown, but I do know that Dayton's only DIII program at the time was football.  I would assume that the Hoyas were the same.

The grandfather clause was something that came about in 2004 or 2005.  It affected Hopkins, CC, and a few other DIII schools that had DI "showcase" scholarship programs.  There was to be a ruling that would have forced all schools to compete at the same level in all sports.  These schools put forward an alternative plan that would allow them to remain in DIII and keep their DI showcase programs, and give the same opportunity to all other schools.  The idea was that this would be a fair compromise, though I'm not sure that it is.

Part of the reason why Dayton and Georgetown were kicked out of Division III football was because they had other high-profile athletics programs (basketball, in particular) that created an unfair revenue stream and publicity that smaller DIII schools could not compete with.  That makes sense.  However, when one takes a look at Hopkins' scholarship lacrosse program, and to a lesser extent, Colorado College's scholarship hockey program, are not the same unfair advantages in place?  During the spring, Hopkins' lacrosse team is on national television just about every weekend and it is consistently competing for a national title.  I've heard some even say that the revenues created by Hopkins lacrosse is more than enough to fund their entire athletic program.  In essence, Hopkins lacrosse in the 2000s isn't much different than Dayton or Georgetown basketball in the early 1990s.  And other Division III schools don't even have the opportunity to try to compete on a level playing field with Hopkins, because if other DIII schools want to have a showcase athletic program in DI, they still can't offer scholarships. 

St Peters in Jersey City was one of the programs forced to move football to DIAA in the early 90s'.  This forced an end to the annual NJCU/JCSC v St Peters football game for JC bragging rights.  This was quite often a good game but when St Peters went DIAA they did not want to play and lose to a DIII team.  That shows how sad St Peters football was.  They folded their program two years ago I believe.  They fielded and non-scholarship basketball team in the MAAC but were part of the Georgetown and other schools getting moved out of DIII for football.  I think if St Peters had been allowed to stay DIII they would still have a team and it would be decent but not great.  I do not see where their basketball program gave them an advantage in football.

[PurpleSuit]

enough of the division talks.  most, if not all of the points brought up have been brought up yearly.  bottom line is Mount is not and will not be moving up a division or playing D2 schools.   Can there be any talk about the big game between Cap and Ott? or any other OAC game?

[MUCheats]

enough of the division talks.  most, if not all of the points brought up have been brought up yearly.  bottom line is Mount is not and will not be moving up a division or playing D2 schools.   Can there be any talk about the big game between Cap and Ott? or any other OAC game?

It's an interesting discussion, I'll start a thread on the general forum about it so it's not taking up space on this one.

For the record, I certainly wasn't proposing that Mount Union move up to another division.  I like them in the OAC and think they're a good fit, even though they dominate football.  Maybe someone should make Kenyon move up to Division II since their swimming program is so dominant. 

[Raider 68]

Capital vs. Otterbein:

Which quarterback will have the better game?

Capital's defense better than Otterbein's?

What home team has won the most between these crosstown rivals?

[bushman]

I think OSU should be happy with a victory over MUC right now.

Maybe but KR wouldn't create 5 turnovers and LK wouldn't blame the O line.

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

One last post on the Dayton situation.  I heard at the time (was at MUC 1990-1994) that Dayton was giving Football players scholarships in other sports (BB, Track, Baseball) and thus creating the unfair advantage.  Don't know if it was true or not, but I don't doubt it was happening.

[mr_mom]

It's an interesting discussion, I'll start a thread on the general forum about it so it's not taking up space on this one.

Thanks, CS.  I don't want to offend PurpleStreak, and yes, I have heard many of these arguments before, but now they seem to be backed by more knowledge than emotion.  I would love to see the new thread.

[seventiesraider]

it's Mount-Wilmington week and no chatter?  whats the deal?

I was going to go to the library and create a signon for Will-Quacker but then I would have wanted to create one for Bad-In-Football and I knew I'd get caught.

What the hell was the OAC thinking when they let them in? They make Hiram look good.

I think they have a Pharm-Beta-Kappa chapter 8)

We had DI schools who wouldn't run us in track in the sixties, although there was different clasifications then

Hey, I'd pay to watch JCU play Creighton in basketball After all, I'm paying $5.00 to watch the Mount-Akron Exhibition game. I've seen them pay for real in Memorial Hall in Alliance before it became the parking lot for the MAAC.

[MUCheats]

One last post on the Dayton situation.  I heard at the time (was at MUC 1990-1994) that Dayton was giving Football players scholarships in other sports (BB, Track, Baseball) and thus creating the unfair advantage.  Don't know if it was true or not, but I don't doubt it was happening.

Sorry, I just can't help myself.

As an (recent) alumnus of Dayton, I have to admit that I've heard those stories before, particularly with track scholarships given to football players during that time period when the Flyers were playing Division III ball.  I can't vouch for the truth to such stories, but I do remember hearing/reading that that's why the new legislation was always informally referred to as the "Dayton rule."

If it were happening, I can almost guarantee that they weren't using basketball scholarships to skirt the rules.  Dayton has always been a basketball school first, and there's no way basketball scholarships would be "wasted" to improve the football team.  Track and baseball?  Maybe.

[reality check]

Yes Dayton used scholarship money from elsewhere to bring in football talent.  They've found creative uses for scholarship money even after the changes were made.  I know of "leadership" and "community-service" related scholarships that went to UD football players as a front.  This was as recent as the late 90's and early 00's. 

OTT and CAP has been a lot tighter than you might think over the last decade.  They are 5-5 through the last ten meetings.  OTT has won the last two and 3 of the last 4.  This one should be interesting.

[MUCheats]

Yes Dayton used scholarship money from elsewhere to bring in football talent.  They've found creative uses for scholarship money even after the changes were made.  I know of "leadership" and "community-service" related scholarships that went to UD football players as a front.  This was as recent as the late 90's and early 00's.

Dayton's been playing Division I FCS (formerly AA) football since they were booted from Division III in 1991.  They play in college football's version of limbo, where they're non-scholarship, but no such NCAA championship playoff exists.  Even if your charges are accurate, and Dayton is handing out athletic scholarships masquerading as leadership scholarships, it's not as if it's a huge deal, because they're not playing for anything really besides a mostly meaningless PFL (conference) championship.  There was a time when the SportsNetwork voted on a Division I "mid-major" national champion, but they no longer even do that, since the number of Division I non-scholarship schools has gone from about two dozen to maybe half that number.

[MUCheats]

Getting this thread back on topic, I have a question:

Would it at all possible for the OAC to end up with three bids to the NCAA playoffs?  It seems to me that if there were ever year that it could/should happen, this is it.