FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[Raider 68]

Random thoughts and musings..........by double S..

OAC - I think this board has been instrumental in connecting OAC fans/former players, and in turn has led most of us to support any OAC team that makes the play-offs.  I can honestly say I am a quasi-CAP/ONU fan. 

Cleveland State - I somewhat agree with Drennan, but I think they would only be so good.  I think that is what Lake Erie thinks/thought would happen. 

Successful Football Program attracting non-football playing students - absolutely.....this has been documented at Mount. 

So who's Mount's first round opponent?  Any guesses?

Mount's first playoff opponent: Here is a guess- Montclair State
if they make it.

[HScoach]

HScoach,
       I beg to differ with you. Mount has built such a strong program it makes no difference what the conference does.Yes, it looks good if the OAC gets a pool C bid but , it is not relevant.
Do you think Kenyon's swimming program gives a hoot if another NCAC team makes the show?
They win no matter what and so does Mount's  FB program.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but Mount ABSOLUTELY needs the OAC to be strong if they hope to remain at the top of D3.  Mount needs the OAC to have some other strong teams in order to test them.  You need pushed physically and emotionally to the edge in order to grow, to find out what works and what doesn't, who can make the plays in crunch time, as well as building resolve and confidence to make it thru adversity.   A single team might still win the Stagg without coming from a good conference, but in order for Mount to remain as one of the best nationally over a long period of time, they need the OAC to have some tough teams in it to push and test them each year before the playoffs.  If the 3rd or 4th round of the playoffs is the first time you've ever been pushed, you're not likely to survive.

This season is a perfect example of the growth associated with successfully facing adversity.  The entire Raider offense, and most importantly the QB, needed to be placed in the situation at Capital of HAVING to score to hang with the Crusaders.  The growth of Kurt Rocco personally and the team's confidence in him is a direct result of the plays he made that day while facing adversity of trailing on the road against a good team.  You can't replicate that pressure playing against Wilmington or Muskingum.   Anyone that has followed the Raiders this season can not deny the progression of Rocco as a QB.  And the key for him and the coaching staff was the tight game at Capital.

Even the ONU game, while very competitive, didn't produce the stress of Capital because Mount always was either winning or tied and the defense was completely dominating the Bears.  So at ONU, all the Mount offense had to do was not be stupid and it was only a matter of time before they would pull away.  However at Capital, the offense had to score now because if not the defense was likely to allow the 7 point deficit to grow even higher. 

If nothing else a team needs a tight game or two just to keep their heads.  Some of the most disappointing Raider performances in the Stagg were with teams that had it too easy in getting there and might have gotten a little too big for their britches.  The '03 loss to SJU definitely fits into this category.  I think the '07 loss to Whitewater does too. 


And I'm not sure the comparison of Kenyon swimming is an accurate one because of the type of sport.  Swimming and track are time based evaluations, not head to head physical competitions like basketball or wrestling, where the swimmer is competing against a timed perfomance level that can be predetermined as to whether he was good or bad.  Regardless of the level of competition in the lane next to them, a swimmer or runner will know immediately after the race whether he performed adequately or not and whether he has the time to compete on a national level.  That isn't the case in football.  Beating crap out of Hiram, Oberlin, etc every week doesn't prepare you to face the physical battle of playing Whitewater.    I realize the swimmer is more likely to swim faster if the person in the next lane is pushing him, but the ultimate evaluation on a national level is whether the individual has the time, and that can be coached, practiced against, and evaluated regardless of the level of competition in the next lane.

[Toph]

HScoach,
       I beg to differ with you. Mount has built such a strong program it makes no difference what the conference does.Yes, it looks good if the OAC gets a pool C bid but , it is not relevant.
Do you think Kenyon's swimming program gives a hoot if another NCAC team makes the show?
They win no matter what and so does Mount's  FB program.

I would think football especially one of the oldest conferences in D3 and
a top playoff record (not just Mount) would attract more athletes and prestige than swimming. (No offense to the great swimming programs).
Football also helps pay the bills for the universities and colleges.

It doesn't get more prestigious in DIII athletics than the Kenyon swimming program. Take a look at their national championships in the pool for both mens and womens. Unreal. Blows Mount's 10 outta the water

I'd like to respond to two things here.  First and foremost, the idea that "football helps pay the bills for universities and colleges" is probably one of the biggest misconceptions in college athletics.  Sure, the top schools make money, but a football program is extremely expensive.  For example, Kent State football operated at a $3.4 million loss last season.  If you're interested there's a book that's now a few years old called The Game of Life:  College Sports and Educational Values.  It's a study of athletic programs at different levels (Major Division I, Ivy League, Division II, Division III).  The results are interesting.

In response to the idea of Kenyon's national championships being "more prestigious" than Mount Union's national championships...more impressive, certainly.  More prestigious...certainly not.  There's a reason the Stagg Bowl is on ESPN2 and the DIII swimming championships are on...CSTV, internet, I don't know?  Prestige is perceived value or standing.  The football titles are without a doubt more prestigious.

[reality check]

Random thoughts and musings..........by double S..

OAC - I think this board has been instrumental in connecting OAC fans/former players, and in turn has led most of us to support any OAC team that makes the play-offs.  I can honestly say I am a quasi-CAP/ONU fan. 

Cleveland State - I somewhat agree with Drennan, but I think they would only be so good.  I think that is what Lake Erie thinks/thought would happen. 

Successful Football Program attracting non-football playing students - absolutely.....this has been documented at Mount. 

So who's Mount's first round opponent?  Any guesses?

Themselves.  Because they won't be getting beat by whomever lines up across from them if they're in the East.

[seventiesraider]

Bruse Brennen was ranting on "All Bets are Off" yesterday about what a natural it would be to bring big time football to Clleveland State."Because the talent is all there.

Doesn't seem to be helping St Schula's and the The Pile

JCU and BW aren't going to attract D1 football players (obviously).  A D1 school could.  Look at how many Cleveland area players end up in the Big Ten (and many for Ohio State in recent years).  If CSU built up a respectable program, they'd have a good amount of local D1 talent to draw from that currently must go elsewhere to play D1 football.

They sure don't end up at Akron or Kent State.

[Knightstalker]

Since KS will be busy tomorrow.

November 11 is the day set aside to honor all Veterans of the Armed Forces of United States of America living and dead.  While we remember our fallen comrades who have paid the ultimate price today is also to thank our living Veterans for their service to our great nation.  Here is wishing all veterans a happy Veterans Day and many more and thank you for all you have done and all you are doing.

Michael Dougherty
Sr. Vice Commander
District 3 Department of New Jersey
Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States

[rscl70]

Bruse Brennen was ranting on "All Bets are Off" yesterday about what a natural it would be to bring big time football to Clleveland State."Because the talent is all there.

Doesn't seem to be helping St Schula's and the The Pile

JCU and BW aren't going to attract D1 football players (obviously).  A D1 school could.  Look at how many Cleveland area players end up in the Big Ten (and many for Ohio State in recent years).  If CSU built up a respectable program, they'd have a good amount of local D1 talent to draw from that currently must go elsewhere to play D1 football.

They sure don't end up at Akron or Kent State.

I doubt Cleveland State could build a program beyond the level of the Mid American Conf.  They would simply dilute the same talent pool that Akron and Kent draw from.

[SaintsFAN]

hscoach,

I like the bracket Keith came up with.  It would be a HUGE test for Thomas More in round 2 in Alliance.   And TMC would get to find out up close and personal what they need to improve on to move up to the level directly behind MUC and UW-W.  Plus, all of my buddies who played at TMore with me would get a trip up to Alliance ---- which they would love because of all that I said about it after the Wheaton/MUC game last year.

[jam40jeff]

Bruse Brennen was ranting on "All Bets are Off" yesterday about what a natural it would be to bring big time football to Clleveland State."Because the talent is all there.

Doesn't seem to be helping St Schula's and the The Pile

JCU and BW aren't going to attract D1 football players (obviously).  A D1 school could.  Look at how many Cleveland area players end up in the Big Ten (and many for Ohio State in recent years).  If CSU built up a respectable program, they'd have a good amount of local D1 talent to draw from that currently must go elsewhere to play D1 football.

They sure don't end up at Akron or Kent State.

Some do, like Patrick Nicely.

[PurpleSuit]

HScoach,
       I beg to differ with you. Mount has built such a strong program it makes no difference what the conference does.Yes, it looks good if the OAC gets a pool C bid but , it is not relevant.
Do you think Kenyon's swimming program gives a hoot if another NCAC team makes the show?
They win no matter what and so does Mount's  FB program.

I would think football especially one of the oldest conferences in D3 and
a top playoff record (not just Mount) would attract more athletes and prestige than swimming. (No offense to the great swimming programs).
Football also helps pay the bills for the universities and colleges.

It doesn't get more prestigious in DIII athletics than the Kenyon swimming program. Take a look at their national championships in the pool for both mens and womens. Unreal. Blows Mount's 10 outta the water

I'd like to respond to two things here.  First and foremost, the idea that "football helps pay the bills for universities and colleges" is probably one of the biggest misconceptions in college athletics.  Sure, the top schools make money, but a football program is extremely expensive.  For example, Kent State football operated at a $3.4 million loss last season.  If you're interested there's a book that's now a few years old called The Game of Life:  College Sports and Educational Values.  It's a study of athletic programs at different levels (Major Division I, Ivy League, Division II, Division III).  The results are interesting.

While I was at MUC, I worked in the SID department and can say that the football program loses money every year for the college, especially when they make it to the Stagg Bowl.  those $5 tickets arent paying for all of the expenses of the program.  However, the school benefits greatly from the success of the program, with the commercials on ESPN and the added publicity. 

[MUCheats]

OAC - I think this board has been instrumental in connecting OAC fans/former players, and in turn has led most of us to support any OAC team that makes the play-offs.  I can honestly say I am a quasi-CAP/ONU fan.

The real test will be how Mount Union fans react if/when they're no longer the big dog and it comes down to rooting for another OAC team to carry the conference flag in the playoffs--perhaps even after knocking off MUC.  May not happen for a decade or more, but still...

Successful Football Program attracting non-football playing students - absolutely.....this has been documented at Mount.

The Flutie Factor, the Gonzaga Effect, there are several names for this phenomenon.  I didn't know it happened that much at the DIII level, however.  If it's happening at Mount Union, it wouldn't be a shock, but I don't know that I see it raising the school's academic profile.

[Raider 68]

OAC - I think this board has been instrumental in connecting OAC fans/former players, and in turn has led most of us to support any OAC team that makes the play-offs.  I can honestly say I am a quasi-CAP/ONU fan.

The real test will be how Mount Union fans react if/when they're no longer the big dog and it comes down to rooting for another OAC team to carry the conference flag in the playoffs--perhaps even after knocking off MUC.  May not happen for a decade or more, but still...

Successful Football Program attracting non-football playing students - absolutely.....this has been documented at Mount.

The Flutie Factor, the Gonzaga Effect, there are several names for this phenomenon.  I didn't know it happened that much at the DIII level, however.  If it's happening at Mount Union, it wouldn't be a shock, but I don't know that I see it raising the school's academic profile.

CarrollStreaks,

Surprized you are not talking about another disappointing season
for JCU vs. what  MUC fans may think when someone else in the OAC beats
Mount. I was there when we did not win as many and we still had fan
good fan support. The point being Mount fans still support the other
OAC teams and we have two former Raiders doing at good job as Head
Coaches.

Both JCU and B-W need coaching changes, maybe some other former
Raiders can help with that!

[Toph]

While I was at MUC, I worked in the SID department and can say that the football program loses money every year for the college, especially when they make it to the Stagg Bowl.  those $5 tickets arent paying for all of the expenses of the program.  However, the school benefits greatly from the success of the program, with the commercials on ESPN and the added publicity. 

One of the book's fundamental flaws is that it doesn't take "sports as marketing" into account.  Part of the reason for this, however, is that while Mount Union has almost certainly received more applications due to the success of their football program, thus leading to more revenue for the universicollege (still college for now, right?)...it is difficult to measure the effect.  I remember hearing something like, "Applications are up 150%" when George Mason made the Final Four.  The problem from a data collection standpoint is the inherently large margin for error when you're asking a 17 or 18 year old kid how they found out about you.

The majority of schools lose money on their football programs.  Think of all the expenses:  equipment, travel, coaching staff, stadium upkeep and maintenance, utilities for the stadium and/or practice facilities...and that's just scratching the surface.  There are far more Kent State's of the world than Florida's.

[Raider 68]

While I was at MUC, I worked in the SID department and can say that the football program loses money every year for the college, especially when they make it to the Stagg Bowl.  those $5 tickets arent paying for all of the expenses of the program.  However, the school benefits greatly from the success of the program, with the commercials on ESPN and the added publicity. 

One of the book's fundamental flaws is that it doesn't take "sports as marketing" into account.  Part of the reason for this, however, is that while Mount Union has almost certainly received more applications due to the success of their football program, thus leading to more revenue for the universicollege (still college for now, right?)...it is difficult to measure the effect.  I remember hearing something like, "Applications are up 150%" when George Mason made the Final Four.  The problem from a data collection standpoint is the inherently large margin for error when you're asking a 17 or 18 year old kid how they found out about you.

The majority of schools lose money on their football programs.  Think of all the expenses:  equipment, travel, coaching staff, stadium upkeep and maintenance, utilities for the stadium and/or practice facilities...and that's just scratching the surface.  There are far more Kent State's of the world than Florida's.

Toph,

What is your take on the JCU program, its coaches and where does it
go from here?

[HScoach]

The sports financial impact for a D3 school is not as simple as expenses versus ticket/merchandise sales like it is for D1.  A successful D3 football program bringing in a 100+ freshmen a year sure helps the college's bottom line when they are all paying their way into school.  That's a lot of $ incoming because of the football team.



SaintsFAN:  I'd love to see T More come to Alliance.  Any time we get to see a new team is a good thing.  Though I'm not so sure about meeting a bunch of people that will publicly claim to be your friends.  Those can't be the upper crust of society.