FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[AO]

Guess what's a lower percentage than converting 4th and 18?  Scoring 3 TD's in a minute.   

You can't score 3 TDs without the ball.  If you punt and then don't allow a first down, you only lose 30 seconds and gain a fresh set of downs from possibly much better field position.  As it was they lost only 1:39.  If you're going to score 3 TDs, with 2 minutes to go, why not 3 TDs with 1:30 to go?

They had the ball and chose to give it away.  You have a better chance of getting a 1st down on 4th and 18 than you do having to punt it and hope to stop MTU from getting a first down and then hoping again that your field position is "much better".

Field position was better, and it wouldn't have been the first time they held Mount to a "3 and out" or forced a fumble in the game.   

AO is the anti-Easterbrook, I never thought I would see the day that someone complains that Mount/LK took a knee too soon.  I think that LK was trying to get the game completed without anyone getting hurt.  Who knows how much longer the Tommies' QB could go on?

But back to football, Junior Collins has been selected to play in the East-West Shrine Game in January.  Following the Cecil Shorts path to the draft.

BS.  Watch the hits Driskill was delivering in the final 30 seconds.  Why is Driskill even out there if LK is concerned about an injury?  He realized his mistake in not understanding the clock and decided to keep playing.

Because they are playing tackle football.  St Thomas decided that they wanted to keep playing and the Mount Union defensive players were probably more than willing to lay the wood with little-to-no consequences.  If a St Thomas player would have been injured in the final minute or so, it would have been all on their coach. 

if Driskill gets injured is it Caruso's fault?  Mount was playing to maintain their scoring advantage, the same as St. Thomas was playing to score.  You're right, it is football.  Stop complaining if the other team wants to keep playing when they can get the ball back.

[Jonny Utah]

Guess what's a lower percentage than converting 4th and 18?  Scoring 3 TD's in a minute.   

You can't score 3 TDs without the ball.  If you punt and then don't allow a first down, you only lose 30 seconds and gain a fresh set of downs from possibly much better field position.  As it was they lost only 1:39.  If you're going to score 3 TDs, with 2 minutes to go, why not 3 TDs with 1:30 to go?

They had the ball and chose to give it away.  You have a better chance of getting a 1st down on 4th and 18 than you do having to punt it and hope to stop MTU from getting a first down and then hoping again that your field position is "much better".

Field position was better, and it wouldn't have been the first time they held Mount to a "3 and out" or forced a fumble in the game.   

AO is the anti-Easterbrook, I never thought I would see the day that someone complains that Mount/LK took a knee too soon.  I think that LK was trying to get the game completed without anyone getting hurt.  Who knows how much longer the Tommies' QB could go on?

But back to football, Junior Collins has been selected to play in the East-West Shrine Game in January.  Following the Cecil Shorts path to the draft.

BS.  Watch the hits Driskill was delivering in the final 30 seconds.  Why is Driskill even out there if LK is concerned about an injury?  He realized his mistake in not understanding the clock and decided to keep playing.

Because they are playing tackle football.  St Thomas decided that they wanted to keep playing and the Mount Union defensive players were probably more than willing to lay the wood with little-to-no consequences.  If a St Thomas player would have been injured in the final minute or so, it would have been all on their coach. 

if Driskill gets injured is it Caruso's fault?  Mount was playing to maintain their scoring advantage, the same as St. Thomas was playing to score.  You're right, it is football.  Stop complaining if the other team wants to keep playing when they can get the ball back.

So AO, you thought that punting on 4th down was the best strategy to win the game, or are you just defending the call?

[AO]

Guess what's a lower percentage than converting 4th and 18?  Scoring 3 TD's in a minute.   

You can't score 3 TDs without the ball.  If you punt and then don't allow a first down, you only lose 30 seconds and gain a fresh set of downs from possibly much better field position.  As it was they lost only 1:39.  If you're going to score 3 TDs, with 2 minutes to go, why not 3 TDs with 1:30 to go?

They had the ball and chose to give it away.  You have a better chance of getting a 1st down on 4th and 18 than you do having to punt it and hope to stop MTU from getting a first down and then hoping again that your field position is "much better".

Field position was better, and it wouldn't have been the first time they held Mount to a "3 and out" or forced a fumble in the game.   

AO is the anti-Easterbrook, I never thought I would see the day that someone complains that Mount/LK took a knee too soon.  I think that LK was trying to get the game completed without anyone getting hurt.  Who knows how much longer the Tommies' QB could go on?

But back to football, Junior Collins has been selected to play in the East-West Shrine Game in January.  Following the Cecil Shorts path to the draft.

BS.  Watch the hits Driskill was delivering in the final 30 seconds.  Why is Driskill even out there if LK is concerned about an injury?  He realized his mistake in not understanding the clock and decided to keep playing.

Because they are playing tackle football.  St Thomas decided that they wanted to keep playing and the Mount Union defensive players were probably more than willing to lay the wood with little-to-no consequences.  If a St Thomas player would have been injured in the final minute or so, it would have been all on their coach. 

if Driskill gets injured is it Caruso's fault?  Mount was playing to maintain their scoring advantage, the same as St. Thomas was playing to score.  You're right, it is football.  Stop complaining if the other team wants to keep playing when they can get the ball back.

So AO, you thought that punting on 4th down was the best strategy to win the game, or are you just defending the call?

Yes, best strategy to win the game, certainly best strategy to score more.  Sacrifice 30 seconds of clock, plus the chance to create a turnover with tremendous field position, as they had previously when Denton fumbled during a punt return.

[PurpleSuit]

AO has changed my mind.  There was plenty of time left for St Thomas to run three fake FG's for TD.  Mount's lucky to have the walnut and bronze back in Alliance.  LK was out-coached.

[Jonny Utah]

Guess what's a lower percentage than converting 4th and 18?  Scoring 3 TD's in a minute.   

You can't score 3 TDs without the ball.  If you punt and then don't allow a first down, you only lose 30 seconds and gain a fresh set of downs from possibly much better field position.  As it was they lost only 1:39.  If you're going to score 3 TDs, with 2 minutes to go, why not 3 TDs with 1:30 to go?

They had the ball and chose to give it away.  You have a better chance of getting a 1st down on 4th and 18 than you do having to punt it and hope to stop MTU from getting a first down and then hoping again that your field position is "much better".

Field position was better, and it wouldn't have been the first time they held Mount to a "3 and out" or forced a fumble in the game.   

AO is the anti-Easterbrook, I never thought I would see the day that someone complains that Mount/LK took a knee too soon.  I think that LK was trying to get the game completed without anyone getting hurt.  Who knows how much longer the Tommies' QB could go on?

But back to football, Junior Collins has been selected to play in the East-West Shrine Game in January.  Following the Cecil Shorts path to the draft.

BS.  Watch the hits Driskill was delivering in the final 30 seconds.  Why is Driskill even out there if LK is concerned about an injury?  He realized his mistake in not understanding the clock and decided to keep playing.

Because they are playing tackle football.  St Thomas decided that they wanted to keep playing and the Mount Union defensive players were probably more than willing to lay the wood with little-to-no consequences.  If a St Thomas player would have been injured in the final minute or so, it would have been all on their coach. 

if Driskill gets injured is it Caruso's fault?  Mount was playing to maintain their scoring advantage, the same as St. Thomas was playing to score.  You're right, it is football.  Stop complaining if the other team wants to keep playing when they can get the ball back.

So AO, you thought that punting on 4th down was the best strategy to win the game, or are you just defending the call?

Yes, best strategy to win the game, certainly best strategy to score more.  Sacrifice 30 seconds of clock, plus the chance to create a turnover with tremendous field position, as they had previously when Denton fumbled during a punt return.

See I look at it differently.  Here is how I would break it down.

Chance to:
-win the game: .02%

-convert a 4th and 18: 15% (and you still have the ball then and all three timeouts to stop them again)

-punt and hope for a muff: 3% (MUC could have chosen not to catch a tough punt)

-block a punt: 5% (tough to say for me, I don't know how good STUs special teams are)

-punt and stop then from converting a 1st down: 50% (not knowing they would kneel the ball, and also knowing that they would punt again, and probably give you an additional 20 yards?)

-punt and force a fumble during that next MUC possession: 2%

I don't know, I'm taking the chance to convert on 4th, as the chance to do everything else is so slim, that first score is the most important one and you get your timeouts.  field position isn't going to mean that much with MUC punting again anyway.

[Desertraider]

Guess what's a lower percentage than converting 4th and 18?  Scoring 3 TD's in a minute.   

You can't score 3 TDs without the ball.  If you punt and then don't allow a first down, you only lose 30 seconds and gain a fresh set of downs from possibly much better field position.  As it was they lost only 1:39.  If you're going to score 3 TDs, with 2 minutes to go, why not 3 TDs with 1:30 to go?

They had the ball and chose to give it away.  You have a better chance of getting a 1st down on 4th and 18 than you do having to punt it and hope to stop MTU from getting a first down and then hoping again that your field position is "much better".

Field position was better, and it wouldn't have been the first time they held Mount to a "3 and out" or forced a fumble in the game.   

AO is the anti-Easterbrook, I never thought I would see the day that someone complains that Mount/LK took a knee too soon.  I think that LK was trying to get the game completed without anyone getting hurt.  Who knows how much longer the Tommies' QB could go on?

But back to football, Junior Collins has been selected to play in the East-West Shrine Game in January.  Following the Cecil Shorts path to the draft.

BS.  Watch the hits Driskill was delivering in the final 30 seconds.  Why is Driskill even out there if LK is concerned about an injury?  He realized his mistake in not understanding the clock and decided to keep playing.

Because they are playing tackle football.  St Thomas decided that they wanted to keep playing and the Mount Union defensive players were probably more than willing to lay the wood with little-to-no consequences.  If a St Thomas player would have been injured in the final minute or so, it would have been all on their coach. 

if Driskill gets injured is it Caruso's fault?  Mount was playing to maintain their scoring advantage, the same as St. Thomas was playing to score.  You're right, it is football.  Stop complaining if the other team wants to keep playing when they can get the ball back.

I don't have a problem with Driskill - I see that as reactionary. The tommies got the ball back after diving into victory 3 times. tommies then RAN ACTUAL PLAYS. What should the D do - let them score? You can't defend tommies with "play to the whistle" and then blast Driskill for playing to the whistle. Had the tommies gone for it on 4th down that would show they were still fighting. Had they called a TO after Mount ran 1st play, or 2nd play - still fighting. To let it go until Mount gets a 1st down and under a minute and then start the TOs and diving into formation was cheap.

[AO]

See I look at it differently.  Here is how I would break it down.

Chance to:
-win the game: .02%

-convert a 4th and 18: 15% (and you still have the ball then and all three timeouts to stop them again)

-punt and hope for a muff: 3% (MUC could have chosen not to catch a tough punt)

-block a punt: 5% (tough to say for me, I don't know how good STUs special teams are)

-punt and stop then from converting a 1st down: 50% (not knowing they would kneel the ball, and also knowing that they would punt again, and probably give you an additional 20 yards?)

-punt and force a fumble during that next MUC possession: 2%

I don't know, I'm taking the chance to convert on 4th, as the chance to do everything else is so slim, that first score is the most important one and you get your timeouts.  field position isn't going to mean that much with MUC punting again anyway.

I hope you're not a poker player.  Why take the 15% chance (even 15% seems generous) over the 50% chance?

[HScoach]

AO's defense of STU's tactics are misguided at best and plain idiotic at worst.  If Caruso was still playing to win, he has two options:
1.  Don't punt (by far the best option)
2.  Call timeouts immediately after Mount's first couple plays hoping his defense can force a quick 3 and out

But once Mount picked up the first down, the game was over.  Regardless of whether STU got the ball back again with a few seconds left or not.  I honestly don't have a problem with him calling the timeouts, he was just dumb in when he called them.  It's the submarining of O-line by the DT's that is cheap. 

We said on the broadcast that we assumed (wrongly as it turns out) that the timeout after the first kneel down was to calm his defense down and to play out the last few seconds with restraint and class.  However when they did it again on the 2nd kneel down that Caruso revealed his true character.   The first kneel down could have been the random act of a frustrated individual player.  The 2nd kneel down was obviously a coaching decision.   

Good thing I wasn't in LK's shoes as I would have run a jet route from the victory formation on 3rd down after the games Caruso pulled on 1st and 2nd down to score another one. 

[Jonny Utah]

See I look at it differently.  Here is how I would break it down.

Chance to:
-win the game: .02%

-convert a 4th and 18: 15% (and you still have the ball then and all three timeouts to stop them again)

-punt and hope for a muff: 3% (MUC could have chosen not to catch a tough punt)

-block a punt: 5% (tough to say for me, I don't know how good STUs special teams are)

-punt and stop then from converting a 1st down: 50% (not knowing they would kneel the ball, and also knowing that they would punt again, and probably give you an additional 20 yards?)

-punt and force a fumble during that next MUC possession: 2%

I don't know, I'm taking the chance to convert on 4th, as the chance to do everything else is so slim, that first score is the most important one and you get your timeouts.  field position isn't going to mean that much with MUC punting again anyway.

I hope you're not a poker player.  Why take the 15% chance (even 15% seems generous) over the 50% chance?

Maybe that is why your logic is failing.  That 50% and 15% isn't to win the game, it is to get the ball back without using timeouts at some point on the field with the added task of stopping Mt. Union from getting a 1st down. 

And that isn't how poker works.  Do you take the 15% chance at a royal flush, or a 50% chance at 2 pair?

[AO]

See I look at it differently.  Here is how I would break it down.

Chance to:
-win the game: .02%

-convert a 4th and 18: 15% (and you still have the ball then and all three timeouts to stop them again)

-punt and hope for a muff: 3% (MUC could have chosen not to catch a tough punt)

-block a punt: 5% (tough to say for me, I don't know how good STUs special teams are)

-punt and stop then from converting a 1st down: 50% (not knowing they would kneel the ball, and also knowing that they would punt again, and probably give you an additional 20 yards?)

-punt and force a fumble during that next MUC possession: 2%

I don't know, I'm taking the chance to convert on 4th, as the chance to do everything else is so slim, that first score is the most important one and you get your timeouts.  field position isn't going to mean that much with MUC punting again anyway.

I hope you're not a poker player.  Why take the 15% chance (even 15% seems generous) over the 50% chance?

Maybe that is why your logic is failing.  That 50% and 15% isn't to win the game, it is to get the ball back without using timeouts at some point on the field with the added task of stopping Mt. Union from getting a 1st down. 

And that isn't how poker works.  Do you take the 15% chance at a royal flush, or a 50% chance at 2 pair?

50% chance at two-pair.  This is what Caruso did. Just because you misinterpret his punt as a white flag, doesn't mean you get to call him classless once you realize your mistake.

[wally_wabash]

In context, it makes no sense, regardless of how much you wish it did. Personally I don't think it was necessarily meant as bad sportsmanship, just a coach caught up in the game making some odd choices under pressure at the end of a long season and a disappointing game. It happens, but it's really not defensible as "good football strategy."

This, I think, is the best paragraph of this debate. 

Look, it was weird.  I would have gone for the 4th down.  But let's say that it's ok that St. Thomas punted on the idea that they could force a fumble and get the ball back immediately.  When that doesn't happen, then the game is over.  And the game is really over after Mount Union makes a first down.  I can understand not wanting to stand there and watch the clock tick for 2 minutes, but the game was over.  Ultimately, I think it's a matter of Coach Caruso not wanting to wave the white flag to the Raiders because this may well not be the last time these teams get together deep in the postseason and you don't want to set that precedent of finding a time to just give up.  I also believe that sometime down the road after Caruso beats Mount Union or whoever else to win one of these titles, he'll look back at the end of that game and wish he had it to do over again.  He'll never admit it outwardly because that's not how coaches are programmed, but there will be a point in his career where playing the end of a game like that won't be an option. 

[Retired Old Rat]

AO, you're not going to win this fight.  Caruso is who he is.  Mount guys don't have to like him.

[jknezek]

AO, you're not going to win this fight.  Caruso is who he is.  Mount guys don't have to like him.

Of course, the other thing to realize is we are discussing this with a guy that has almost -900 Karma. Can we just assume AO is neither an idiot nor stubborn like a mule and simply likes to irritate people by making illogical statements and then sticking to them to see how many people he can goad into a response?

[HScoach]

See I look at it differently.  Here is how I would break it down.

Chance to:
-win the game: .02%

-convert a 4th and 18: 15% (and you still have the ball then and all three timeouts to stop them again)

-punt and hope for a muff: 3% (MUC could have chosen not to catch a tough punt)

-block a punt: 5% (tough to say for me, I don't know how good STUs special teams are)

-punt and stop then from converting a 1st down: 50% (not knowing they would kneel the ball, and also knowing that they would punt again, and probably give you an additional 20 yards?)

-punt and force a fumble during that next MUC possession: 2%

I don't know, I'm taking the chance to convert on 4th, as the chance to do everything else is so slim, that first score is the most important one and you get your timeouts.  field position isn't going to mean that much with MUC punting again anyway.

I hope you're not a poker player.  Why take the 15% chance (even 15% seems generous) over the 50% chance?

Maybe that is why your logic is failing.  That 50% and 15% isn't to win the game, it is to get the ball back without using timeouts at some point on the field with the added task of stopping Mt. Union from getting a 1st down. 

And that isn't how poker works.  Do you take the 15% chance at a royal flush, or a 50% chance at 2 pair?

50% chance at two-pair.  This is what Caruso did. Just because you misinterpret his punt as a white flag, doesn't mean you get to call him classless once you realize your mistake.

Wrong.  The white flag was not using his timeouts BEFORE Mount converted the first down.  Using them after the first down was dumb. 



1st and 10 at UMU18    Mount Union drive start at 02:17.
1st and 10 at UMU18    Jake Simon rush for 3 yards to the UMU21 (Sam Pokornowski; Riley Dombek).   THIS IS WHEN THE TIMEOUT SHOULD HAVE BEEN CALLED IF CARUSO WANTED TO MAXIMIZE HIS SLIM CHANCE AT STILL WINNING.
2nd and 7 at UMU21    Jake Simon rush for 10 yards to the UMU31 (Tyler Erstad).  FRESH SET OF DOWNS = BALL GAME OVER. 
1st and 10 at UMU31    TEAM rush for loss of 2 yards to the UMU29.
2nd and 12 at UMU29    Timeout St. Thomas, clock 00:50.
2nd and 12 at UMU29    TEAM rush for loss of 2 yards to the UMU27.
3rd and 14 at UMU27    Timeout St. Thomas, clock 00:49.
4th and 11 at UMU30    Brandon Mathie punt 40 yards to the UST30, Sean Hamlin return 14 yards to the UST44.

[HScoach]

AO, you're not going to win this fight.  Caruso is who he is.  Mount guys don't have to like him.

Of course, the other thing to realize is we are discussing this with a guy that has almost -900 Karma. Can we just assume AO is neither BOTH an idiot nor AND stubborn like a mule and AS WELL AS simply likes to irritate people by making illogical statements and then sticking to them to see how many people he can goad into a response?

^ Fixed.

On the positive side, at least he's kept board active for a few days when normally we're all of doing something else.   And I especially find it enjoyable that most of the pro-Mount stances are being taken by people that are not Mount fans.