FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[Onward on, John Carroll]

I don't think a D2 opponent will happen at the varsity level for the exact reason mentioned...no upside for the D2 school. 

I just do not agree with this assumption that there is no upside for the D-II schools. Most of the recruiting conducted by these schools in relatively local, regional at best.  I think that most high school coaches and most good high school players can go to a game involving Mount and an upper-tier OAC foe and know that the football is very similar to a mid level GLIAC game, regardless of division.  Also, I cannot think that would find a coach or player that is not very much aware of Mount's NFL players, facilities and excellent program. In short, I do not think that Walsh, Ashland, Malone, NDC, etc. can recruit successfully by stating "This is a higher division.  This is better football."  I would think that would fail each and every time. 

I would assume that they would be and have been more successful due to their ability to appeal to the vanity of parents and players by being able to offer athletic scholarships (even if these are sometimes the equivalent value to the academic scholarships and grants offered by OAC schools).  People like to say they got an athletic scholarship and an OAC school does not give you that right. 

So, all that being said, why not schedule Mount to a regional rivalry game that might actually put some butts in the seats at Fawcett?  If Walsh or most any GLIAC school beat Mount, I cannot think of one football-knowledgable person that would say "They're suppose to beat them."  There is definite upside, IMO. 

[PurpleSuit]

I don't think a D2 opponent will happen at the varsity level for the exact reason mentioned...no upside for the D2 school. 

I just do not agree with this assumption that there is no upside for the D-II schools. Most of the recruiting conducted by these schools in relatively local, regional at best.  I think that most high school coaches and most good high school players can go to a game involving Mount and an upper-tier OAC foe and know that the football is very similar to a mid level GLIAC game, regardless of division.  Also, I cannot think that would find a coach or player that is not very much aware of Mount's NFL players, facilities and excellent program. In short, I do not think that Walsh, Ashland, Malone, NDC, etc. can recruit successfully by stating "This is a higher division.  This is better football."  I would think that would fail each and every time. 

If you look at the W-L of most of those programs you would be correct, it does fail.  But that's exactly what is said, or at least what was said "back in my day" at Mount.  Back then Walsh and Malone were NAIA but it was scholarship vs non-scholarship.  It's a mute point anyways.  The local D2 programs are now in conferences and there's little chance that the open dates would work out. 

Mount's out of conference games normally aren't that bad and are typically playoff caliber (UWW, SJF, Franklin, UWO, Wash U).   There will be programs that will continue to step up to the challenge, every once in a while Mount will have to schedule a program that just isn't ready (Averett and Bethany).

[raiderpa]

Totally agree with "Onward", the parental and player vanity of saying, "My son/I got a football scholarship.", is the reason many kids go to DII schools with lesser programs, lesser facilities, and in some cases lesser coaching.  If this is their reason for attending Walsh, Malone, and the like, good riddance.  Their selfish attitudes would not work at places like Mount Union, WWW, and other DIII schools.

[TailGate]

The ONLY upside to a DII is if they beat Mount -- which they won't.  An actual loss to Mount is worse than a speculated loss to Mount.  An actual loss means your D2 schools real estate most definitely just went down.   The question is - how much?  The impact may be that the defeated D2 just takes a lesser position among D2's. 

As it goes, the allure of D2 status, signing for a scholarship, and having cheaper college expenses draws kids in to D2's.  Do not kid yourself in thinking the costs may be equivalent -- unless you have a 32 and up on ACT,  are a talented artist or musician that qualifies for one of a D3's unique grant opportunities, or are VERY low income  -  D3 will still be a lot more expensive than D2.  A serious D2 freshman recruit can attend a D2 school for under 5-12k a year, middle range recruit will pay up to 18k.   Low end recruits and practice players brought in to boost the D2 teams GPA or subsidize the schools general funds may pay close to D3 amounts - but, I would assert that many of these guys are D3 players to begin with.   Give a kid a couple thousand  so they can say they have a football scholarship goes a long way with some people and then the school gets a student for at least a year at just a bit lower than the average tuition seems like a win-win.  It comes down to money and egos.

[ExTartanPlayer]

the parental and player vanity of saying, "My son/I got a football scholarship.", is the reason many kids go to DII schools with lesser programs, lesser facilities, and in some cases lesser coaching.  If this is their reason for attending Walsh, Malone, and the like, good riddance.  Their selfish attitudes would not work at places like Mount Union, WWW, and other DIII schools.

I know what you mean, and I think that much of D2 football overlaps with D3 football (as TailGate says, the middle and bottom-tier kids on most D2 rosters are basically the same as D3 players in terms of football ability) but to be fair (at least in PA) the financial and academic differences between most D2 schools and D3 schools are not trivial.  I know a handful of guys who played at D2 schools that did not do it just to say they played D2 instead of D3; they did it because the D2 schools were genuinely the best place for them to go to college and play football.

With that said, you're right that many folks exist who just want to say that they/their son went to the biggest school possible, or whatever.  Fine.  Have fun.

[TailGate]

D2/D3 scenario varies by state.  Other than Central State, all Ohio D2's are private.  PA D2 schools are primarily public with maybe 3 private schools.  Publics tend to have larger enrollment and offer more degree options.   I would expect PA kids to choose D2 over D3, whenever possible.  More options, cheaper tuition, prestige of *scholarship*.  But in Ohio,  D2 schools are fairly limited in degree offerings and quality of degree programs, with much stronger academic programs/majors at the D3 level.  For the same reason that students in PA may make the choice to attend D2 for educational reasons, if parents look at educational options (and football programs) in Ohio when comparing D2 to D3, the D3's as a whole would win hands down.  D2 talent that lands in D3 Ohio schools happen primarily for kids whose parents can afford the higher D3 costs and because parents can see the value of a D3 education over what is offered at D2 schools.  Crazy as it sounds, I think the D2 level in Ohio provides an option for kids who are not D1, but can't afford D3.

[Onward on, John Carroll]

Interesting takes . . . I guess I did make an erroneous general statement is stating that D3 costs with grants and aid would match D2 costs.  While that will be the case for some students, I assume for many, D2 proves to be cheaper.  In short, that can go both ways.  As for the quality of programs and offerings, I have to agree with Tailgate that, generally, the OAC (and most certainly the NCAC)  has a far more attractive grouping of schools than Ohio's D2 counterparts. There are exceptions but I would argue that BW, Case, JCU and Oberlin are all superior to  NDC and Lake Erie.  Same for a comparison of Wooster and Mount to Ashland, Malone and Walsh or Otterbein and Capital to ODU.  Obviously, each kids makes his own decision and their are programming differences that may make one school better than another in a particular set of circumstances, but, general, this is how I see it.

That said, I am a big fan of JCU, Mount and all of our schools so that certainly colors my opinion. 

[ExTartanPlayer]

Interesting takes . . . I guess I did make an erroneous general statement is stating that D3 costs with grants and aid would match D2 costs.  While that will be the case for some students, I assume for many, D2 proves to be cheaper...There are exceptions but I would argue that BW, Case, JCU and Oberlin are all superior to  NDC and Lake Erie.  Same for a comparison of Wooster and Mount to Ashland, Malone and Walsh or Otterbein and Capital to ODU.

Again, "superior" is relative.  As TailGate said, OH and PA have an interesting juxtaposition in that OH has predominantly private schools playing Division II football, whereas virtually all of PA's Division II football schools are public universities (to make an ENORMOUS generalization, they are both less selective and less expensive than their in-state Division III counterparts).  I was a privileged kid with parents that had the means to send me anywhere I wanted, regardless of cost, because they had sacrificed and planned since I was young, and thus an "academically elite" institution was within reach for me financially as well as academically.  However, I have friends who either would not have been able to afford school at a similar institution or would not have been admitted to a similar institution, but did quite well at some of the PSAC schools.  They didn't go to the PSAC schools because they wanted to play "Division II" football instead of "Division III" football - they went because that was just the best place for them to attend college, and it happened they could play football.  FWIW, the better PSAC schools are very good football teams, but the middle/bottom of the league, from what I've seen, is probably similar to upper-middle level Division III football.

Thus, which school is the "superior" option is in the eye of the beholder.  I'm very keenly aware that the most expensive, selective, and/or prestigious school is not always the "superior" option for every prospective student-athlete.  Good discussion.

[Gregory Sager]

Never underestimate the ego factor involved in a male student-athlete's choice of school. It doesn't describe everybody, of course, or maybe not even a majority of male student-athletes, but a significant proportion of them will opt for a scholarship offer over a D3 school, regardless of the location, cost, academic caliber, athletic prowess, etc., of the contrasting schools. That's true even with NAIA schools, some of whose scholarships are miniscule (NAIA schools that offer athletic scholies typically carve them up into small pieces so that they can dole them out to a larger number of student-athletes). I'm aware of a significant number of male basketball players, for example, who chose an NAIA program over a D3 program because of the prestige involved in having an athletic scholie, even though the D3 school was better academically or athletically (or both) and the financial aid available made the two schools comparable in overall cost. And the really ridiculous part is that those NAIA partial scholies only amount to as little as $500 or $750 a year in some cases!

When you're an 18-year-old manchild, the ability to tell your friends and family that you're on an athletic scholarship somewhere is a very powerful lure, and never mind the actual details.

As for the D2 thing, count me in among the group that sees absolutely no upside for a D2 team to play Mount Union. For one thing, a good D2 team wouldn't want to play the Purple Raiders because the game wouldn't count for NCAA ranking purposes, so it wouldn't help move the team towards a possible at-large berth in the D2 playoffs. For another, as others here have said, what could possibly be gained by a D2 team dropping down to play a D3 team? The only possible incentive would be attendance, and playing Mount Union in order to host 4,000 fans instead of 1,500 is just not a good enough reason to counterbalance the shame and ignominy if Walsh or Malone or Notre Dame were to lose to a D3 school. At this point in the history of NCAA athletics, a D1 or D2 will never drop down to face a D3 opponent unless the game is either a sure thing or because geography or some other unusual circumstance leaves the D2 school with no other choice.

With regard to recruiting, as TailGate and XTP have said, Ohio is a state that has a number of D2 private schools. But that's somewhat atypical; Pennsylvania is more the norm in terms of the D2 schools being predominantly public, because 52% of D2's membership consists of public schools and 48% consists of private schools. That's a drastic difference from D3, where our ratio of public to private is 19:81. XTP's personal experience, then, in terms of the public vs. private situation being another factor in the difference between the local D2s and the local D3s in the Keystone State, is more typical of the nation as a whole than is the D2 privates vs. D3 privates situation in Ohio.

[Dr. Acula]

There are exceptions but I would argue that BW, Case, JCU and Oberlin are all superior to  NDC and Lake Erie.  Same for a comparison of Wooster and Mount to Ashland, Malone and Walsh or Otterbein and Capital to ODU.

Oh man, definitely that one.  Baaaad.  And that's not even throwing in OWU and Denison which are both within 30-40 minutes too!  The lesson:  if you want to go to school in or around Columbus and you pick ODU I have to assume you are either staunchly Catholic or very set on playing D2.      

[PurpleSuit]

ODU won the GLIAC last season at 10-0, former Mount QB/OC Z. Bruney is on the staff

[Dr. Acula]

Oh, I know they're good in football.  I worked with a couple guys who played there recently.  I was commenting on OoJC's comments on academic programs.  ODU's reputation is not good (albeit improving) in central OH compared to pretty much any other college when it comes to academics.   

[Mr. Ypsi]

Vince Kehres is young enough that if he had some success of his own at Mount Union it would be silly to assume he'd spend the rest of his career there. When higher levels came calling for LK, he was fairly close to retirement and might have decided it was too late to move. But VK interviewed for other head coaching jobs before landing his current one, so I think it's safe to think he might do so eventually someday.

Many coaches prefer the lifestyle and comparative lack of pressure of D3 over the wealth of 'moving up'.  IWU went more that 50 years with only two basketball coaches.  I don't know if Jack Horenberger had opportunities to move on, but Dennie Bridges had many such offers.  He was uninterested; IWU paid him enough to be quite comfortable, and he much preferred the intimacy of small college ball (for example, personally knowing all the regular fans).  And he knew that, barring scandal or 10-15 consecutive losing seasons (he had zero losing seasons), he had perfect job security.

Bridges had four losing seasons, Chuck. In fact, I think that you were an IWU student during two of them, 1967-68 and 1968-69.

I stand sorta corrected.  He had ONE losing season (of 36 seasons as HBC) against D3 competition - 1984-85 when he finished 10-11.  The other years you mentioned he did not have losing records against D3 competition.  In 1967-68, 3 losses to D1, 4 to D2 teams, so 11-7 against D3.  In 1968-69, 4 losses were to D1, 3 to D2, so 11-8 vs. D3.  In 1988-89, 1 loss was to D1, 1 to D2, so 12-12 vs. D3.  (He loved to schedule 'up' both for the competition and chance for comparisons, but also for the financial guarantee which financed the once every three years special trips.)

Yes I was a student in two of the 'losing' seasons, 1967-68 and 1968-69.  But I probably blocked out the records because I didn't yet have a car and rarely attended away games (I couldn't find the info, but I suspect they won over 75% of their home games), and because they did SO well in 1969-70 (the next-to-last undefeated champion CCIW basketball has yet seen) that 'all was forgiven'!

NOTE:  all these seasons are so long ago that I was not always certain of the opponents' classification.  I went for current classification except for about half that I knew they had gone up or down.

(Apologies for a CCIW basketball diversion on the OAC football board. )

[Dr. Acula]

It's bye week for 80% of the conference this week so I doubt anyone will have an issue!

[Gregory Sager]

Vince Kehres is young enough that if he had some success of his own at Mount Union it would be silly to assume he'd spend the rest of his career there. When higher levels came calling for LK, he was fairly close to retirement and might have decided it was too late to move. But VK interviewed for other head coaching jobs before landing his current one, so I think it's safe to think he might do so eventually someday.

Many coaches prefer the lifestyle and comparative lack of pressure of D3 over the wealth of 'moving up'.  IWU went more that 50 years with only two basketball coaches.  I don't know if Jack Horenberger had opportunities to move on, but Dennie Bridges had many such offers.  He was uninterested; IWU paid him enough to be quite comfortable, and he much preferred the intimacy of small college ball (for example, personally knowing all the regular fans).  And he knew that, barring scandal or 10-15 consecutive losing seasons (he had zero losing seasons), he had perfect job security.

Bridges had four losing seasons, Chuck. In fact, I think that you were an IWU student during two of them, 1967-68 and 1968-69.

I stand sorta corrected.

"Sorta"? You said that he had zero losing seasons. You didn't qualify it. We aren't mindreaders, Chuck. If you're wrong, you're wrong ... even if you claim that you intended to say it a different way but didn't.

He had ONE losing season (of 36 seasons as HBC) against D3 competition - 1984-85 when he finished 10-11.  The other years you mentioned he did not have losing records against D3 competition.  In 1967-68, 3 losses to D1, 4 to D2 teams, so 11-7 against D3.  In 1968-69, 4 losses were to D1, 3 to D2, so 11-8 vs. D3.  In 1988-89, 1 loss was to D1, 1 to D2, so 12-12 vs. D3.  (He loved to schedule 'up' both for the competition and chance for comparisons, but also for the financial guarantee which financed the once every three years special trips.)

Now you're just making it worse. You've got him playing games against D3 competition when D3 didn't even exist. NCAA College Division was split into D2 and D3 for the 1974-75 school year.

Yes I was a student in two of the 'losing' seasons, 1967-68 and 1968-69.  But I probably blocked out the records because I didn't yet have a car and rarely attended away games (I couldn't find the info, but I suspect they won over 75% of their home games), and because they did SO well in 1969-70 (the next-to-last undefeated champion CCIW basketball has yet seen) that 'all was forgiven'!

This is the most novel explanation I have ever read, Chuck. "I blocked it out because I didn't have a car and rarely attended away games."



Mind if I borrow this excuse? I promise I'll attribute you when asked.

NOTE:  all these seasons are so long ago that I was not always certain of the opponents' classification.  I went for current classification except for about half that I knew they had gone up or down.

... which makes no sense, because it assumes that colleges and universities remain static in terms of their size, missions, priorities, budgets, etc. Are you still counting the University of Chicago as a Big Ten school, too?

(Apologies for a CCIW basketball diversion on the OAC football board. )

Please don't apologize, Chuck. "I blocked it out because I didn't have a car and rarely attended away games," is going to be the new "My dog ate my homework" if I have anything to say about it.