FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[Dr. Acula]

BW confuses me.  Other than their one playoff season they have not finished solo 2nd in the conference again in the 15 years of the D3.com era.  Beyond that, they've only finished 7-2 in OAC play one other time.  What gives?  How can BW have as many 3-6 seasons over that span as they do anything better than 6-3?  They've seemingly settled into this rut where they're ending up 5-4 or 6-3 most years.  That's fine and all, but this is BW.  Shouldn't they be better than that?  At least semi-regularly?  I'm not saying they should be throwing up top 10 rankings like JCU currently, but shouldn't BW be good enough to toss up a 7-2 mark every 2-3 years?  This is starting to feel like a slightly better version of the Regis era at JCU... 

[ExTartanPlayer]

That's fine and all, but this is BW.  Shouldn't they be better than that?  At least semi-regularly?

Why is this so?  Perhaps there is a legitimate reason, I'm just curious what the "this is BW" is supposed to mean.  11 winning seasons in the last 15 years is pretty good, not great, but still pretty good.  Why is going 6-3 or 5-4 in the conference underachieving specifically at BW?  How much better than that should they be, and more pertinently, why should BW specifically be better than that?

There could well be a factor that I'm missing here - like some fantastic facility or a bazillion dollar football endowment - but short of that, I don't understand the "this is BW, shouldn't they be better than 5-4 or 6-3 most years" logic.

[PurpleSuit]

BW embraces mediocrity.  It's that simple.  Mediocre program, mediocre coach, mediocre facilities, mediocre results.  BW is a Michigan State QB transfer away from being 6-4/5-5 seemingly every year.  One look at their football website (http://bwyellowjackets.com/sports/fball/Program_Information/programinfo) and you would think that BW plagiarized from another OAC program

Some gems:

The Baldwin Wallace University football program is one of the best in all of college football. It is a simple and plain fact that is both factual and result based. Virtually every season, BW is a contender for both the prestigious Ohio Athletic Conference title and the NCAA Division III National Championship.

On the field, BW has built a history of being arguably the best football program in the history of the OAC.

the Yellow Jackets have compiled an all-time record of 546-319-30 - good for a .627 winning percentage. The 546 wins are the most of any current OAC member school.

Legendary Coaches....John Snell

[Dr. Acula]

That's fine and all, but this is BW.  Shouldn't they be better than that?  At least semi-regularly?

Why is this so?  Perhaps there is a legitimate reason, I'm just curious what the "this is BW" is supposed to mean.  11 winning seasons in the last 15 years is pretty good, not great, but still pretty good.  Why is going 6-3 or 5-4 in the conference underachieving specifically at BW?  How much better than that should they be, and more pertinently, why should BW specifically be better than that?

There could well be a factor that I'm missing here - like some fantastic facility or a bazillion dollar football endowment - but short of that, I don't understand the "this is BW, shouldn't they be better than 5-4 or 6-3 most years" logic.

They should be better because:

1) I'm not sure there's a school in the OAC better geographically located in proximity to talent. They're surrounded by dozens of high quality HS programs.  This isn't ONU where you're in the middle of nowhere.  You're in a west side suburb of Cleveland with possibly the most fertile HS football area in OH within an hour of you.

2) The school administratively and financially supports athletics.  They're definitely one of the "haves" in the OAC.  This isn't Cap where the head football Coach's office is the size of a closet and the president openly brushes off athletics.  BW supports their programs as well as anyone.

3) They are consistently pretty good.  This isn't Berg where it's a dumpster fire for a coach to extinguish.  I can't imagine what Hallett could do at a place like BW.  He was already ahead of them at a 900 kid school in Tiffin that didn't even have a stadium on campus.

The point is that, just like JCU, BW should be a top 25 team IMO.  Not every year.  But at least some years.  But as Suit said, it seems BW is fine with how things are.  Snell has been there years now and probably will remain there.  I'm only viewing this from the aspect of an OAC fan pining for more good teams in the conference.  Obviously there are many factors at play beyond that.

[ExTartanPlayer]

That's fine and all, but this is BW.  Shouldn't they be better than that?  At least semi-regularly?

Why is this so?  Perhaps there is a legitimate reason, I'm just curious what the "this is BW" is supposed to mean.  11 winning seasons in the last 15 years is pretty good, not great, but still pretty good.  Why is going 6-3 or 5-4 in the conference underachieving specifically at BW?  How much better than that should they be, and more pertinently, why should BW specifically be better than that?

There could well be a factor that I'm missing here - like some fantastic facility or a bazillion dollar football endowment - but short of that, I don't understand the "this is BW, shouldn't they be better than 5-4 or 6-3 most years" logic.

They should be better because:

1) I'm not sure there's a school in the OAC better geographically located in proximity to talent. They're surrounded by dozens of high quality HS programs.  This isn't ONU where you're in the middle of nowhere.  You're in a west side suburb of Cleveland with possibly the most fertile HS football area in OH within an hour of you.

2) The school administratively and financially supports athletics.  They're definitely one of the "haves" in the OAC.  This isn't Cap where the head football Coach's office is the size of a closet and the president openly brushes off athletics.  BW supports their programs as well as anyone.

3) They are consistently pretty good.  This isn't Berg where it's a dumpster fire for a coach to extinguish.  I can't imagine what Hallett could do at a place like BW.  He was already ahead of them at a 900 kid school in Tiffin that didn't even have a stadium on campus.

The point is that, just like JCU, BW should be a top 25 team IMO.  Not every year.  But at least some years.  But as Suit said, it seems BW is fine with how things are.  Snell has been there years now and probably will remain there.  I'm only viewing this from the aspect of an OAC fan pining for more good teams in the conference.  Obviously there are many factors at play beyond that.

Perfect. Exactly the reply that I was looking for. I think my first post came off a bit too much like a "disagreement" when it was really intended as part "inquiry" about why expectations should be higher at BW than other OAC schools.

It is fascinating (at all levels) to see some high-variance programs who can go 2-8 and then 9-2 within a three year stretch while others seem to remain on autopilot at 6-4 every year. I've always thought a team that's "above average" every year is hard to complain about (I'm a Philadelphia Eagles fan, and for much of Andy Reid's tenure as coach, I incredulously defended our division-title-winning coach against fans who complained that he had to go because he'd never won a Super Bowl)...but now I can see your position.

I guess a final question, then: you mention that "BW seems content" with things how they are. Okay. You also mention that the administration supports athletics. Okay. So you're (presumably) implying that it's a coaching issue? Reason I ask, I've stated before (in other threads, not here) that I'm a pretty firm believer that D3 coaches should almost never be fired based on W's and L's unless a program has nosedived to utter helplessness. If a coach is bringing in a large number of recruits, retention is decent, and the kids do well enough in school & represent their program well off the field, I can't support a move for a coaching change at a program that hovers around .500 or better, even if there's a belief that the team should be better. Just my opinion.

[raiderpa]

Regarding B-W football, my fiancé said it all last night at dinner. I told her I was most likely going to attend the game Saturday at Baldwin Wallace and she said, "Isn't that team the "Bumblebees"?"  I nearly fell off my chair and after regaining composure thought, You know, recently they have been more like bumblebees than yellow jackets...
They do need a change of direction.  Although my opinion of Coach Snell is that he is a fine gentleman, I believe that if BW wants to become legitimate in the OAC again, they need to try some new leadership and attitude.

[ADL70]

PurpleSuit

Nearly all d3 programs have websites designed by either Prestosports (BW and UMU) or Sidearmsports, which is why they look similar.

[Dr. Acula]

The Baldwin Wallace University football program is one of the best in all of college football. It is a simple and plain fact that is both factual and result based. Virtually every season, BW is a contender for both the prestigious Ohio Athletic Conference title and the NCAA Division III National Championship.

This can't actually be on their site.  Hilarious.

[ExTartanPlayer]

PurpleSuit

Nearly all d3 programs have websites designed by either Prestosports (BW and UMU) or Sidearmsports, which is why they look similar.

I don't think Suit's issue is with the design of the website as its content.  The quotes he highlighted are a good example.  I'm fine with listing the all-time program record and total number of wins - I think it's dumb, but most schools celebrate things like the alltime win total - but quotes like:

"Virtually every season, BW is a contender for both the prestigious Ohio Athletic Conference title and the NCAA Division III National Championship"

"On the field, BW has built a history of being arguably the best football program in the history of the OAC."

...are so utterly absurd.  I'd like to hear the argument that says BW is arguably the best football program in the history of the OAC over a program that's been to...how many Stagg Bowls in the last 20 years?

[Raider 68]

As long as the Baldwin Wallace Administration and AD are content with the football program winning more than they lose,
a change in the HC is not in the future. On the other side of town at JCU, they finally woke up and brought in a former
JCU grad and look how it has changed. The question may be at some point, is there a B-W grad like Coach Arth to eventually
take over at B-W. Since Mount Union and Baldwin Wallace have close ties academically, then maybe a former Mount grad
would want the challenge if it ever came?

[Dr. Acula]

Arth's first big test comes next year, IMO.  I think next year is going to be very interesting in the OAC with Mount replacing Burke, JCU replacing Myers and Berg replacing Mees (a 4 yr starter), Brooks and Dye.  We're going to find out just how well these guys have recruited the last couple of years, especially at QB.

[Pat Coleman]

The Baldwin Wallace University football program is one of the best in all of college football. It is a simple and plain fact that is both factual and result based. Virtually every season, BW is a contender for both the prestigious Ohio Athletic Conference title and the NCAA Division III National Championship.

This can't actually be on their site.  Hilarious.

They are definitely a contender. Not a strong contender, but they are eligible for the championship virtually every season.

[Spurrier]

I always believed division three football was all about getting a degree while still getting to the play the game we love...if a program stays above five hundred, retains most of its players, keeps young men out of trouble, and graduates student-athletes, what's the big deal?...at the end of the day, diii coaches should be measured by the mighty men of valor they build in their programs...the big-money, power-five, win-at-all-cost, mentality at scholarship level football programs has no place at diii schools...

[Desertraider]

I always believed division three football was all about getting a degree while still getting to the play the game we love...if a program stays above five hundred, retains most of its players, keeps young men out of trouble, and graduates student-athletes, what's the big deal?...at the end of the day, diii coaches should be measured by the mighty men of valor they build in their programs...the big-money, power-five, win-at-all-cost, mentality at scholarship level football programs has no place at diii schools...

I agree!!!!! 100%!!! Now take this into the NCAC room. Look sorry to unload this mind-blast but this is a room ABOUT FOOTBALL!! Yes DIII is always about more than the sports - its about the degree, the education, the reality that virtually none of these guys will move on to professional football but will be great leaders etc. But at the same time, in a D3 football chat room, where we chat about football, and prognosticate about match-ups, and about the mighty histories of our football programs....can we leave academics out of it? I posted something in the NCAC board in response to "football" and power teams, etc. and the response was all about academics and how Wooster and Hiram et al are these academic powers (?), while guys went to Mount for football. My thought is that if all you have on your side in a football discussion is your academics - then you have come unarmed for the battle. Take the academic stuff to the "OAC Academic discussion board". 

We now resume our regularly scheduled football discussion. Again - sorry for the rant.

[bleedpurple]

I always believed division three football was all about getting a degree while still getting to the play the game we love...if a program stays above five hundred, retains most of its players, keeps young men out of trouble, and graduates student-athletes, what's the big deal?...at the end of the day, diii coaches should be measured by the mighty men of valor they build in their programs...the big-money, power-five, win-at-all-cost, mentality at scholarship level football programs has no place at diii schools...

I think most everyone here agrees with you on ALMOST every part of your post. I think you list many of the reasons we all love D-III. However, the part that is arbitrary and potentially annoying to people is the "stays above .500" part of your post. I think you would agree that drawing a line at ".500" is not value based.  I understand you are responding to potentially supporting or not supporting the firing of a coach. You have every right to use whatever criteria you want to form your opinion.

Some schools draw that line at .500 (which many schools sure appear to do) some may draw the line at .000 (which hopefully few schools would do), or some may draw the line at "strong contender for national championships". I think it's important to acknowledge that drawing that line higher (national championships) in no way lessens the administration's commitments to the other values (mighty men of valor they build in their programs, etc.). In fact, an argument could be made that some schools with high winning expectations invest MORE into the young men we all respect and care about so much.