FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[MasterJedi]

I have carefully danced around this issue a few times, but I do want to toss it out there, politely but with conviction.  I say this with some trepidation, because I love and support Division III football, I believe that the level of competition is generally higher than it's given credit for amongst the general football-watching population, and know that there is some overlap across divisions (I genuinely do believe that Mount and UWW would be low-top-25-caliber programs in Division II).  So, with all of that said:

I think that some fans of the nation's best Division III teams (please note the "some") have gotten a little disconnected from the rest of Division III, because they've been so dominant for so long, that they've forgotten they are still just a Division III program.  Guys that get Division I scholarship offers aren't just turning them down to play at Mount and UWW instead; most of the guys playing for UW-Whitewater and Mount Union would be playing Division I football if they could be.  I am quite certain that some fans would like to believe that the attraction of playing for such a winning program has overridden the desire to play on a higher level or have a scholarship, but I am guessing that for 95+ percent of the roster at Mount and UWW that isn't true.  Some guys no doubt got a few letters from Division I schools, maybe even took an official visit, but how many of them actually had an offer for a Division I scholarship in hand and turned it down to play for Mount or UWW?  Not a newspaper column that says they got a letter from a Division I coach, or went to a Division I camp, but an actual scholarship offer?  I'm guessing that's only a few.

I have to agree with you Ex.   Over the years we've had two D1 scholarship players that I can remember.  Both running backs and both ending up in WW for reasons that had little to nothing to do with leaving the D1 program to play for us.  The D1 transfers we have gotten have typically been a walk on.  Kumerow was a walk on at Illinois.  We have a walk on who transferred from Washington State this year.  We've had others in the past also.  This scenario isn't uncommon.  We seem to get one every couple of years or so.  We lost a player who walked on at Wisconsin this year.  Personally it won't surprise me if he returns before he graduates.  The "scholarship" type players that we do get come from DII programs or have DII offers and we seem to get a few of them every year.   

Good God I hope Finco returns! He was good, but small so I have a feeling you may be right if it's all football based, I don't think he'll get much playing time at UW but he'll get a great education if anything.

[flaballcoach]

- With the competitive nature of recruiting now with more D2 schools, those bigger guys are going for the scholarship
  programs. Over the last few years HScoach made this point several times.

- The Raiders have not really had a 200+ pound back since Chuck Moore, who was just a little over that, but big and fast.

It's funny, I had this whole long post typed (I'll still write it below) but Raider 68 showed up and made the same basic point.  Kudos to you, 68, for saying this more succintly.










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I can't help but think what a 225 pounder with good speed might have done. No disrespect to Logan....I think that kid has tremendous heart and really leaves everything on the field, but it still would be nice to have a guy back there that nobody on the defense wants to have to tackle... a guy that on 4th and 1 can get you that yard even if the blocking breaks down.

Well, yeah.  Every team would love to have a 225 pounder with good speed.  But this is kind of an obvious red-herring...oh, you want a 225 pound back with speed?  Guess where most guys fitting that description end up?  Playing Division I football!  I'm being a little facetious, because admittedly there are some successful bigger backs that play D3 ball - I played with a very good one.  However, it's just not something that you can find off the shelf, even if you're Mount Union.  You'll get one of those once in a blue moon.

I have carefully danced around this issue a few times, but I do want to toss it out there, politely but with conviction.  I say this with some trepidation, because I love and support Division III football, I believe that the level of competition is generally higher than it's given credit for amongst the general football-watching population, and know that there is some overlap across divisions (I genuinely do believe that Mount and UWW would be low-top-25-caliber programs in Division II).  So, with all of that said:

I think that some fans of the nation's best Division III teams (please note the "some") have gotten a little disconnected from the rest of Division III, because they've been so dominant for so long, that they've forgotten they are still just a Division III program.  Guys that get Division I scholarship offers aren't just turning them down to play at Mount and UWW instead; most of the guys playing for UW-Whitewater and Mount Union would be playing Division I football if they could be.  I am quite certain that some fans would like to believe that the attraction of playing for such a winning program has overridden the desire to play on a higher level or have a scholarship, but I am guessing that for 95+ percent of the roster at Mount and UWW that isn't true.  Some guys no doubt got a few letters from Division I schools, maybe even took an official visit, but how many of them actually had an offer for a Division I scholarship in hand and turned it down to play for Mount or UWW?  Not a newspaper column that says they got a letter from a Division I coach, or went to a Division I camp, but an actual scholarship offer?  I'm guessing that's only a few.

Which brings me back to my original point: 225-pound running backs with legitimately speed just don't end up in Division III football that much.  Same thing with 300-pound linemen that can move well enough to really play.  Admittedly, there have been NFL-caliber players that have fallen through the cracks (Garcon and Shorts being the obvious recent examples); it's not impossible to end up with a Division I-caliber talent who (sometimes for inexplicable reasons) did not get noticed in high school.  I just don't think it's that easy to say "Oh, we need a bigger back with speed?  Let's just go get one!"

It's funny, this same basic discussion happened on the WIAC boards with the idea that UW-LaCrosse needs to get bigger guys.  Yeah.  We all want bigger and faster guys!

They DO have 220 and 225 lb Freshman LB's that run sub 4.7......they are probably not in D1 due to heights of 5'10" to 5'11", and being looked at as linebackers only, but I would be willing to bet that they do have past ball carrying experience...  I know it is hard to find backs that fit that description...I played D1 ball......it was just a thought as to where they could look for someone to fill that role, since they often find WR's from other original positions. Look....I'm not posting this stuff so others can prove how much smarter than me they are. I have been involved with football for over 26 years as a coach and a player, and have seen more than a few of my athletes go on to compete in D1,D2,and D3. I don't pretend to know everything but I have learned a FEW things along the way.

And I NEVER said you can find a back like that "off the shelf"  as you put it, or had the ideology of "We need a bigger back with speed. Let's just go get one!"...show me where I said that....you don't need to be condescending or sarcastic.....give me some credit for my years and experiences in the game. Don't you think as a coach I KNOW that any HS RUNNING BACK with those physical attributes is most definitely headed for D1. My whole point was IF Mount Union WANTED to add that aspect t their game, and since going out and getting a back like that isn't very likely at the d3 level, they might look to the freshman LINEBACKERS I mentioned who DO have the physical attributes, and more likely than not did have experience in the past running the ball. IF I was in a situation like that and I WANTED TO incorporate that aspect into my offense, but had no RUNNING BACKS on my roster who had those physical attributes, I'd be walking over to that freshman LB in practice and asking, " did you ever run the ball?", and "how would you feel about doing it again?"

[wally_wabash]

I'd love them to have a big back like Zurek at Wabash, but they have never really had that big of a back that I remember. 

Vetoed.  You may not have him.   

[Dr. Acula]

Based on the 2 deep this week it looks like there's some shifting around on the line.  Jenkins moved from RT to LT.  Frank moved in from LT to LG.  Baker switched guard spots to RG.  Soph Matt Fitchet is the new RT.

Ruth makes his first appearance on the 2 deep at WR this week.

Only change I noticed on D was Stewart now listed as the starter at SPUR, but he and Deerr have both been playing a lot so I assume that continues.

[hsbsballcoach7]

Based on the 2 deep this week it looks like there's some shifting around on the line.  Jenkins moved from RT to LT.  Frank moved in from LT to LG.  Baker switched guard spots to RG.  Soph Matt Fitchet is the new RT.

Ruth makes his first appearance on the 2 deep at WR this week.

Only change I noticed on D was Stewart now listed as the starter at SPUR, but he and Deerr have both been playing a lot so I assume that continues.

I bet that we see subtle changes each week in the starting lineup until week 10 to see which lineup starts the best and then make in-game changes from there.

Mount Union has actually had a larger RB recently in Jake Simon and he was "only" 5-11 200lbs. He never rushed for more than 600 yards in a season, but I will never forget his touchdown run in the amazing comeback against MH-Baylor and the week after in the 2012 championship. This just show that it helps to have one take some of the short yardage load off of Mitchell and Nemeth (who actually does well in this area).

I also agree with the poster who said that Mount won't show much until they HAVE to. I'm sure this has happened for many reasons, mainly being scouted, but last season Mount barely beat JCU in the regular season and in the playoff game, the game didn't feel as close as it was as they added some little wrinkles to the playbook.

Looking forward to the rest of the season.

[ohiofan1954]

I had hoped to go to cap's game tomorrow night but with the expectations on the crowd and the parking instruction you might need to get there 2 hours early to get a seat (or more importantly a parking space.)

[Spurrier]

Let's go Bears...where u at?

[Walt]

I had hoped to go to cap's game tomorrow night but with the expectations on the crowd and the parking instruction you might need to get there 2 hours early to get a seat (or more importantly a parking space.)

Come on out!  I hope there is a big crowd, but you never know.  A lot of folks (like you) might get scared off by the anticipated crowd and/or parking concerns.  It will be like the Yogi Berra quote "nobody goes there anymore because it's too crowded."

[Desertraider]

A little late but Congrats to UWW in the win at Morningside. Now - please educate me. I never have understood the NAIA thing. I get NCAA I (FCS/FBS), II, III. I understand a DIII beating a DII is big because they are a division up - but is NAIA "up", "down"....."lateral"? Not sure. Thanks all-

Roll Raiders!

[jknezek]

A little late but Congrats to UWW in the win at Morningside. Now - please educate me. I never have understood the NAIA thing. I get NCAA I (FCS/FBS), II, III. I understand a DIII beating a DII is big because they are a division up - but is NAIA "up", "down"....."lateral"? Not sure. Thanks all-

Roll Raiders!

Here is a very brief overview:

https://exactsports.com/blog/ncaa-and-naia-scholarships-know-the-difference/2011/02/05/

There are a lot of subtle differences, like the number of sport sponsorships you need to have, how scholarships can be allocated, eligibility requirements, etc. But basically the NAIA is a competing governing body to the NCAA, except much less well known, much smaller (about as many NAIA schools as there are DIII football schools), and much less controversial (mainly because no one cares).

There are a few valid reasons for why it still exists, but those can basically be summed up by 1) the NCAA requires too many sports sponsorships for schools that aren't very rich, 2) "we don't want to be under the NCAA", 3) the only other schools around are NAIA (false for everywhere but the Northwest and Florida), 4) the NAIA claims to have a much bigger "faith and character" emphasis. 

Are they "up" from DIII? I know the NAIA scholarship schools want to be compared with DII, and some can be. Certainly the best NAIA schools in any given sport will compete very well with DII schools. But I think the depth is really bad. After the top couple teams, it is at best upper DIII tailing off to mid or lower DIII, despite the scholarships. See Robert Morris and UWO the last two years, as both schools are considered top 25 in their divisions. They were competitive games that Robert Morris won both years, but would they really compete with top 25 DII schools? Probably not.

Another example is Shorter University. They switched a couple years ago and were a mid-tier NAIA program. Usually above .500 but not making waves in football. They have won 3 Gulf South Conference (NCAA Div II) football games in 3 years since switching. On the other hand, the softball team was NAIA national champs the year before they switched and they have maintained that level in DII, winning conference champs every year and reaching the DII semifinals last year in their first year of national eligibility. So yes, the best programs compete very well in DII, but after that it is a steep slope.

The non-scholarship NAIA level doesn't exist any more for football. I think it is only men's and women's basketball. There used to be a basketball thread on this site detailing out of DIII games. I think DIII does pretty well in basketball against the NAIA, but it's hard to get match ups like last night where it is the cream of the crop versus the cream of the crop.

The NAIA has lost 50% of its membership schools since the NCAA formed DII. They have lost whole sections of the country and I doubt that will stop, so it seems a slow bleed as conferences fall apart.

[Craft_Beermeister]

There is a good article on ESPN related to this St. John's and St. Thomas game.  The rivial between the two teams dates back to 1901.  This saturday they will play for the 84th time and the universities are 84 miles apart.  Long time Mount Union fans sure know both teams from a few classic Stagg Bowl meetings. 

The article is very informative. I knew that the Tommies have had a ton of dollars invested into their facilities over the years.  I just checked their web site and their Opening Doors capital campaign has currently raised $504,104,773.  What did learn from the article is that .... I.A. O'Shaughnessy, who starred for Saint John's in the first game between the two squads in 1901, ditched evening prayer services one night with a buddy the following year and sneaked into the woods to tap a keg. O'Shaughnessy ends up getting caught and expelled.  To avoid his parents O'Shaughnessy leaves the area and enrolls at St. Thomas and gets in because of his honesty in telling why he was expelled from St. John.  O'Shaughnessy ends up being a very successful businessman and donates what is equivalent in toady's dollars to over $100 million. 

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/13737104/saint-john-vs-st-thomas-division-iii-best-rivalry-gets-spotlight-saturday

Is the Mount Union JCU games as big of a rivalry as the Jonnies and Thomies?  I would think it is getting there.

[mr_mom]

In deference to the insufferably long War-and-Peace type postings lately ...

Aflack!   

And please get you picks in before Noon tomorrow ...

[motorman]

You guys seem to have underestimated Berg. Beating JCU 10-0

Games are more than 11 minutes long, too, though. We'll see how it finishes.

Too bad for Heidelberg that the game wasn't called after 10 minutes, would've been a nice win for them.  Are they the Student Princes, the Berg, or another nickname now?

Wish I had everybody's hindsight. Was only making the point that several people felt JCU would dominate them again. Never said that was how the game would end.

They are still the Student Princes. It's you sMUg people who come up with other nicknames for them.

BTW, I am a Mount grad.

[ADL70]

I had hoped to go to cap's game tomorrow night but with the expectations on the crowd and the parking instruction you might need to get there 2 hours early to get a seat (or more importantly a parking space.)

Back in the Pentello years [I know that doesn't pin it down very closely ;-)], there was a home game vs Mt Union that had a SRO crowd that ringed the field.  And I don't recall parking being too bad, certainly closer that an OSU game.  Off course, Bexley may have instituted limited parking rules since then.

Curious that Cap has installed lights.  I recall one of their "deals" with the neighborhood was that there would be no night games.

[Desertraider]

You guys seem to have underestimated Berg. Beating JCU 10-0

Games are more than 11 minutes long, too, though. We'll see how it finishes.

Too bad for Heidelberg that the game wasn't called after 10 minutes, would've been a nice win for them.  Are they the Student Princes, the Berg, or another nickname now?

Wish I had everybody's hindsight. Was only making the point that several people felt JCU would dominate them again. Never said that was how the game would end.

They are still the Student Princes. It's you sMUg people who come up with other nicknames for them.

BTW, I am a Mount grad.

sMUgness aside - when you go 0 for a decade (or very close to that) the nicknames sorta make themselves. And I am not a Mount grad.....Hiram College - insert nicknames here!