FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[WRMUalum13]

Looks like Cap will now be known as the Comets after scrapping the Crusaders name.  Don't know that we even have any Cap posters regularly around these days, but I saw it on the local news so I figured I'd share.

I don't get the change. I mean Indians,  Redskins,  Redmen (my high school nickname) and the like...change them. It's time and we all know it (sorry but it's true). Crusaders...idk. That one I dont get. Then again maybe there is another reason for the change.

Valparaiso also changed their name from Crusaders to Beacons.  According to Valpo, apparently Crusaders has been embraced by hate groups.  That's all I can figure, in and of itself I am with you, don't really understand it.  But with that explanation, I get it.

I'm not a historian, but I believe the anti-Crusader sentiment comes from our modern / more accurate understanding of what the crusades actually were. I'm guessing that when these teams originally chose the nickname, "Crusader" was viewed more simply as someone honorably fighting for Christianity. However, it's now more commonly understood that the Crusades were a pretty brutal Western invasion of the Middle East where the Crusaders treated non-Christian groups very poorly. So, I definitely think these name changes are a tasteful decision. More info:  https://www.history.com/topics/middle-ages/crusades#section_10

That's just my amateur understanding, if anybody knows more feel free to chime in.

[WLCALUM83]

Now independent Maranatha also changed from Crusaders to Sabercats.

[HOPEful]

I'm not a historian, but I believe the anti-Crusader sentiment comes from our modern / more accurate understanding of what the crusades actually were. I'm guessing that when these teams originally chose the nickname, "Crusader" was viewed more simply as someone honorably fighting for Christianity. However, it's now more commonly understood that the Crusades were a pretty brutal Western invasion of the Middle East where the Crusaders treated non-Christian groups very poorly. So, I definitely think these name changes are a tasteful decision. More info:  https://www.history.com/topics/middle-ages/crusades#section_10

Crusader, especially when coupled with imagery of a knight on horseback or the Jerusalem cross, is a direct reference to western world Christians using religion/race as the only needed justification for the rape, murder, and pillaging of Middle Easterners/Muslims. Whether or not that definition resonates with current students/alumni doesn't change the historical context. In an increasingly xenophobic world, I applaud any school that wants to be a part of conversation and solution and not the problem, starting with the empathic decision to change any mascot names that are offensive to a particular group of people.

Even my alma mater, Hope College, should at least discuss how the name "Flying Dutchmen" resonates with their non-Dutch students and alumni and if in 2021, the name continues to be appropriate.

[edward de vere]

Even my alma mater, Hope College, should at least discuss how the name "Flying Dutchmen" resonates with their non-Dutch students and alumni and if in 2021, the name continues to be appropriate.

Seriously?  I mean really, seriously?

"Students of Hope, rise up against . . . wait, what is it we're rising up against again?"

Come on, man.

[Craft_Beermeister]

Even my alma mater, Hope College, should at least discuss how the name "Flying Dutchmen" resonates with their non-Dutch students and alumni and if in 2021, the name continues to be appropriate.

Seriously?  I mean really, seriously?

"Students of Hope, rise up against . . . wait, what is it we're rising up against again?"

Come on, man.

What about the female Dutch students at Hope.  I would hope they are consulted too.

[HOPEful]

Even my alma mater, Hope College, should at least discuss how the name "Flying Dutchmen" resonates with their non-Dutch students and alumni and if in 2021, the name continues to be appropriate.

Seriously?  I mean really, seriously?

"Students of Hope, rise up against . . . wait, what is it we're rising up against again?"

Come on, man.

I'm not saying that the name should or should not being changed. But there's value in having the conversation! There is a very common phrase in American Dutch communities that goes, "If you ain't Dutch, you ain't much..." If you attend Hope for 4 years, I almost guarantee you'll hear it said. In jest or not, what does such a statement say to your student's of color? It literally says you are less than your ethnically Dutch counterparts...

[Desertraider]

No. Because they go to Hope they are Dutch. It is about the association. If the go to Hope they are Dutch and by default Much. If they go to.....BW they arent Dutch, arent Much and have to wear those awful colors. Point is let's not get carried away. I dont think anyone ever in the history of human kind ever took the name Flying Dutchmen and took it literally to mean they were of Dutch origin and airborne.

[Desertraider]

Sorry but I had to switch to an actual keyboard.

The issue you raise over Dutchmen seems to be one of inclusion as opposed to racial stereotype or ethnic slur. Is "Dutch" inclusive to our German, or African, or other non-Dutch, Alumni? I take it as similar to saying "Purple Raiders" does not include all of the blue, or gray or whatever Raiders. However, by going to Mount you "become" a Purple Raider and by going to Hope you become a Flying Dutchman. As in the ship - the mythical ghost ship that forever sails the seas. I guess I see it in the sense that Hope will always be a part of the person once they leave and will always be a distinction in there life. Just as the ship forever sails and instils fear - the Hope grad forever carries the Hope tradition and values forward to influence the world (wow - just came up with that). Now if the Hope "Flying Dutchman" had a storied background of slave ownership and rape or contained a stereotyped image of an actual Dutch Man (not sure what that would be) then I think it would be different.

It is not the same as having a school call themselves the Indians, Braves, Redskins - of course complete with the imagery. In that case it is stereotyping an ethnic group and is offensive. It isn't offensive because the school doesn't have "redskins" or "braves" attending there - it is offensive because it makes a caricature of another race or group based on the most basic of there assumed traits. It is the same as Jimmy the Greek and his infamous statement "Blacks are better athletes because they are bred that way". Google it if you are not familiar. Point is he reduced the race to a collection of derogatory and racially based stereotypes. Now if a university seized on that and called themselves the "Fighting N#@!#@" - this would be a major problem. And it should be. So why is not a problem to call themselves the Redskins, Braves or Indians and use the imagery?

[HOPEful]

No. Because they go to Hope they are Dutch. It is about the association. If the go to Hope they are Dutch and by default Much. If they go to.....BW they arent Dutch, arent Much and have to wear those awful colors. Point is let's not get carried away. I dont think anyone ever in the history of human kind ever took the name Flying Dutchmen and took it literally to mean they were of Dutch origin and airborne.

Hope and Dutch culture are intertwined beyond just the word Dutch being in the mascot's name. The school was founded by Dutch Reformers and keeps many of those same traditions in their affiliation with the RCA and proximity to Western Seminary. Heck, they're in HOLLAND, Michigan, a city best known for their Tulip Festival. But to be clear, I don't think Hope should ever be bullied into changing their mascot. But they'd be negligent if they weren't at least discussing as part of their conversations on race, gender, etc. the impact that "Flying Dutchmen" has on their community and whether or not it continues to fit who they are and want to be as they become a more vibrant and diverse campus.

A mascot is part of your identity. It should be changed if a significant portion of your community no longer identifies with it, or worse yet, is hurt by it. I used Hope as an example, because it's the mascot I am most familiar with. I don't believe it will, or should, ever change. But I do know those conversations have happened and will continue to happen. And they should. If Wilmington decided to ever split from the Religious Society of Friends, I would expect their mascot to change as well. And if the Presbyterian church were to declare carnivorous fish longer than 2 feet in length to be demonic, I would expect Muskingum to change theirs. There's value in the conversation. Even if it doesn't result in a name change, hearing why the name might resonate differently amongst the diverse members of your community will more often that not, create a stronger community.

[section13raiderfan]

Boy, arent we sensitive? You gotta protest about something. Find something more important to protest about.

[bleedpurple]

Even my alma mater, Hope College, should at least discuss how the name "Flying Dutchmen" resonates with their non-Dutch students and alumni and if in 2021, the name continues to be appropriate.

Seriously?  I mean really, seriously?

"Students of Hope, rise up against . . . wait, what is it we're rising up against again?"

Come on, man.

I'm not saying that the name should or should not being changed. But there's value in having the conversation! There is a very common phrase in American Dutch communities that goes, "If you ain't Dutch, you ain't much..." If you attend Hope for 4 years, I almost guarantee you'll hear it said. In jest or not, what does such a statement say to your student's of color? It literally says you are less than your ethnically Dutch counterparts...

Here's how to handle it:

Dutch student: "If you ain't Dutch, you ain't much"

Non-Dutch student: "Whatever"

End of story.

We have to teach kids they get their value from their Creator and Dutch student or team nickname or any other source have NO SAY in that value.  To try to orchestrate the world to be inoffensive is a waste of time. Better to work on steeling the interior of our students to not give a rip what others say about them than to be so focused on offensive behavior. Ignorance should be scoffed at and ignored, not given the platform of outrage.

[HSCTiger74]

Even my alma mater, Hope College, should at least discuss how the name "Flying Dutchmen" resonates with their non-Dutch students and alumni and if in 2021, the name continues to be appropriate.

Seriously?  I mean really, seriously?

"Students of Hope, rise up against . . . wait, what is it we're rising up against again?"

Come on, man.

I'm not saying that the name should or should not being changed. But there's value in having the conversation! There is a very common phrase in American Dutch communities that goes, "If you ain't Dutch, you ain't much..." If you attend Hope for 4 years, I almost guarantee you'll hear it said. In jest or not, what does such a statement say to your student's of color? It literally says you are less than your ethnically Dutch counterparts...

Here's how to handle it:

Dutch student: "If you ain't Dutch, you ain't much"

Non-Dutch student: "Whatever"

End of story.

We have to teach kids they get their value from their Creator and Dutch student or team nickname or any other source have NO SAY in that value.  To try to orchestrate the world to be inoffensive is a waste of time. Better to work on steeling the interior of our students to not give a rip what others say about them than to be so focused on offensive behavior. Ignorance should be scoffed at and ignored, not given the platform of outrage.

  +k for this, and it's so d**n sensible I'll come back in 24 hours and give you another.

[rscl70]

No. Because they go to Hope they are Dutch. It is about the association. If the go to Hope they are Dutch and by default Much. If they go to.....BW they arent Dutch, arent Much and have to wear those awful colors. Point is let's not get carried away. I dont think anyone ever in the history of human kind ever took the name Flying Dutchmen and took it literally to mean they were of Dutch origin and airborne.

Hope and Dutch culture are intertwined beyond just the word Dutch being in the mascot's name. The school was founded by Dutch Reformers and keeps many of those same traditions in their affiliation with the RCA and proximity to Western Seminary. Heck, they're in HOLLAND, Michigan, a city best known for their Tulip Festival. But to be clear, I don't think Hope should ever be bullied into changing their mascot. But they'd be negligent if they weren't at least discussing as part of their conversations on race, gender, etc. the impact that "Flying Dutchmen" has on their community and whether or not it continues to fit who they are and want to be as they become a more vibrant and diverse campus.

A mascot is part of your identity. It should be changed if a significant portion of your community no longer identifies with it, or worse yet, is hurt by it. I used Hope as an example, because it's the mascot I am most familiar with. I don't believe it will, or should, ever change. But I do know those conversations have happened and will continue to happen. And they should. If Wilmington decided to ever split from the Religious Society of Friends, I would expect their mascot to change as well. And if the Presbyterian church were to declare carnivorous fish longer than 2 feet in length to be demonic, I would expect Muskingum to change theirs. There's value in the conversation. Even if it doesn't result in a name change, hearing why the name might resonate differently amongst the diverse members of your community will more often that not, create a stronger community.

"The Demon Muskies"!  Now there's a mascot.

[Dr. Acula]

I just looked at the game notes.  Wilmington gives up 55 points and 543 yds per game.  This is going to get ugly quickly.  Glad if I have to be at the office on a fall Saturday it's Quaker week!

With the byes the Etta/Berg game is the only semi-interesting OAC game this week.  Mount and JCU (at Cap) are glorified scrimmages.

[Desertraider]

Attention Wilmington announcers...specifically Logan....your mic sucks. Really bad. Cannot understand half of what you are saying....sounds like the mic is in your mouth. Oh well. I have every confidence they will read this.