FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[2minuteO]

thanks cufan i was looking at ONN which said 9.... thats great it is on live tv

[dabein22]

test test

[dabein22]

Reality Check and D3 Poster

There is no comparison between Vrable and Pentello.  It is like comparing apples and oranges.  Vrable is a good OAC QB and he will put up good numbers because he will get every opportunity to do so and because his team will be behind in a lot of games.  However, talent-wise, Pentello is head and shoulders above Vrable and everyone else in the league for that matter.  Jorris is clearly second followed by Steltzer, Vrable and Quirk, in that order, and I think it is obvious.

Don't get me wrong, Jorris is a very very good player, but he does benefit from playing on the best team every year.  Mount has the by far the most talent at RB and WR in the league, but more importantly, they have the best O-Line every year.  Mount QBs have always had the luxury of playing practically 7 on 7 the entire game.  The biggest difference between Mount and the rest of the OAC is the O-line.

As for numbers, I have always wondered why some players can be judged by numbers and some players are judged by wins.  Take Phillips from JCU last year.  He put up huge numbers against the bottom half of the league and had a good win against ONU.  But lost badly to BW, looked horrible in a loss to CU, and I think 70-0 against Mount speaks for itself.  Yet there he is, 1st team all-league and OAC back of the year.  Tom Arth was 0-5 vs. Mount, but is considered by some a GOD and a top 3 QB in OAC history.  Then there is Pentello, on the verge of breaking every OAC passing record in history except TDs and is still not considered great because he hasn't beaten Mount.  Who has beaten Mount the past 10 tears.

Is Quirk the greatest QB in league history because ONU beat Mount last year?  Arth, Pentello, and D'Orazio are all better players than anyone Mount has had at QB since Ballard and Borchert.  Don't get me wrong, Mount has had good QBs in that time.  You have to be good to play for LK and to achieve the kind of success Mount has had the past ten years.  But, just because Mount ALWAYS has the best team, that doesn't mean thet always have all the best players.  Football is the ULTIMATE team sport and usually the best team wins, not necessarily the best player.

I love Mount fans, I really do.  But sometimes I think they watch games with purple colored blinders on.  Arth holds nearly every passing record in OAC history, took a team to the final 4, and played for the Colts.  Pentello is on the verge of breaking every passing record, has CU ranked 3rd in the nation, and went to the elite 8 last season.  D'Orazio was an OAC back of the year and his Arena League success speaks for itself.  All of these players are great and should be judged on their talent and accomplishments, not by how many times they beat "the machine".

Before you reply, consider how each of these players would have done if they had choosen to play for Mount.  I think a lot of opinions would be different if these great players would have played for the Purple Raiders instead of against them!!

[HScoach]

dabein22:  Welcome aboard and GREAT post.  I couldn't agree more.

[skunks_sidekick]

Speaking as one of those Mount fans, I think we apply a different skew than most when considering how "great" a quarterback is in the OAC.

Basically, it's how that quarterback performed against Mount in the years he played.  It's based on a narrow first-hand view, during the one, two, three, or however many games the kid plays against Mount (I think Rocky is at something like 15 or 16).   

How Phillips was voted 1st team all league is a total mystery.  He was totally HORRIBLE against Mount.  That game alone should have knocked him down in the voting.  Until Pentello played well against Mount last year, I thought he was very overrated.  Previously against Mount he appeared to play scared, and threw many balls up for grabs running for his life.  Arth had good and bad games against Mount.  His senior year they were pretty bad, although taking that kind of pounding can have an effect on anyone.
Quirk had very little to do with ONU beating Mount last year.  I guess he didn't make mistakes, so he helped his team, but he did nothing to distinguish himself in that game. 

So getting back to your point, I don't think we as Mount fans automatically think our quarterback is the "best" just because he is at Mount, but I think we do judge the other league QB's differently based upon how they perform against Mount.  IMHO of course.   

[raiderpa]

great post...I am a Raider fan, and I wish our people would more often than not take off the glasses, too...

a great many of our fans are forever spoiled...It's 30-0 and their comments are..

"gee, the offense looks horrible"
"What's wrong with these guys?"
"we should score a hundred every game"
"Jorris is sucking today"  (at the time he was 11 for 16)

I would invite Mount posters to put on the most outrageous comments they have overheard....

HS coach, IMO, is one of the most trusting voices of reason if you want to get the true skinny on Mount...Oh, don't forget Ric.....Ric, however, is not as forgiving as HS Coach when silly or uninformed posts are made...(but it's fun to read his ticked off replies to the folks)

[raiderpa]

wasn't Arth only about 75% (more or less) healthly when he played Mount as a senior....

[moe45daddy]

Skunks,
I know that I may be a little biased when I make this statement because I am a former Polar Bear but I think that Quirk had a lot to do with the win last year against Mt. He was 15-of-22 for 108 yards and ended up with positive rushing yardage with zero turnovers. A few of those 15 completions were 3rd down conversions and I do recall at least one third down conversion from passing on a scoring drive. Without the error free ball we do not win that game.

[skunks_sidekick]

Moe - I kind of touched upon that in my post, but you are right, he played a solid game that helped them win.  I guess I just don't view it as a huge game (stats, touchdowns, last second drives) that seem to define a QB's greatness.  This week may define his ranking this year as an OAC QB.  I have this feeling (no voodoo hex, no voodoo hex) that he may be playing from behind, and have to make some big plays.   

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

A few of those 15 completions were 3rd down conversions and I do recall at least one third down conversion from passing on a scoring drive. Without the error free ball we do not win that game.

I don't know how he completed some of those third down conversions.  Many of them (if my memory is right) were wounded ducks, and I just couldn't understand how MUC was not in position to knock them down or pick them off.

But I don't agree that he was a major factor in that game.  More of a Trent Dilfer leading the Ravens to the Super Bowl.  He was there and he didn't make mistakes.  Not like a John Elway or Peyton Manning who make their presence known when playing.  Now Meadows, he made his presence KNOWN last year.

[HScoach]

Raiderpa:  Your $5 is in the mail for the kind words!

In terms of ranking the MUC guys versus the rest of the OAC, I try to factor in how balanced and deep Mount is every year and try to project the other player into LK's system versus what that player is actually seeing the field with, as well as predicting what the MUC player would do behind the other team's O-line, etc.... 

Someone before mentioned Arth and D'Orazio as great QB's that never beat MUC.  But from my perspective, both of those guys would have been scary good playing at Mount.  And in terms of Arth, I'm thinking Jim Ballard type good.  Just because they didn't beat Mount doesn't mean they weren't great QB's.  Just means their teams weren't better.  For example, most of us old timers would rank Jamal Robertson and Chuck Moore as the best 2 RB's in the history of the OAC and they played head to head multiple times.    However Moore always won.   But Moore played behind a better O-line.  So who's better?  Don't know.  Their styles of play were much different, but there's no doubt that they were both studs.  Period!

To be perfectly honest, I'm probably too hard on the MUC guys as it's hard for me to not compare the current guy with the greats from the past.  Where should we rank Jorris in relation to Pentello when we can't rank him in terms of his own school?  The advantage that an Arth,  D'Orazio, or Pentello have in these discussions is that they are all clearly the best QB to ever play at their respective schools.  Jorris on the other hand, gets some people like me that down-grades him because he doesn't have Borchert's mobility or Ballard's arm strength or Smeck's touch.  But Jorris also gets the MUC fans that think all things purple are always the best.  The most accurate evaluation is probably somewhere in between. 

In terms of Jorris, I'll leave it as I'm very glad he's playing at Mount and that he played very, very well in the playoffs when Mount needed it most.  He wasn't as consistent through the 2005 regular season as I would have liked, but he continued to improve and played his best in Salem.

GO MOUNT!

[D3 Poster]

How about Muskingum's Cannonball Cooper and Marietta's Dante Brown?

Any old-timers with first hand memories to report?  I know Cooper is in the College Football Hall of Fame and Dante set some records.

[OU#25]

Don't get me wrong, Jorris is a very very good player, but he does benefit from playing on the best team every year.  Mount has the by far the most talent at RB and WR in the league, but more importantly, they have the best O-Line every year.  Mount QBs have always had the luxury of playing practically 7 on 7 the entire game.  The biggest difference between Mount and the rest of the OAC is the O-line.

The reality in the world of sports is that the true measure of a player ends up being based upon a combination of their stats, championships won and the likeability factor.  Being that we follow D3 there are few if any player personalities to be considered so you can throw out the likeability issue.

That leaves stats and winning as the combined measurement of a player.

I think Pentello is a good/great QB period.  I don't know how it is possible to determine if one QB is better than another however.  I don't like your inference which implies that a QB or other skill positon player who's attended Mount over the past decade is somehow overrated because they played for a better team.  That really is an unfair generalization of talent.  I don't expect Jorris or others to apologize for playing at Mount.

Is Peyton Manning the best QB in the NFL?  All the experts say yes.

or

In fact, does he have the best offensive line in football, a HOF reciver to throw passes to on Sundays and a running game to keep defenses honest?  If Manning was the QB of Cleveland the last 5 years would he be putting up the same stats with their supporting talent?

Does Garcon make Jorris good?  Does Kmic make Garcon good? Does a good offense make the defense better?

The reality is that all these factors are connected...and pulling one position out of the mix for debate is more complicated then it looks.

Pentello is on the verge of breaking every passing record

Finally, it's always exciting to see OAC records being broken no matter who's doing it and I'm glad to see Pentello taking a bunch with him....  but they can be misleading...even with my purple colored glasses on.  That's why I don't believe in measuring stats alone...

During Bill Borchert's career at Mount...considered to be the greatest QB ever to play D3... he accounted for over 200 touchdowns.  That's an amazing stat that may or may not ever be broken...but what's more interesting about that # is that he averaged playing only about 2+ quarters per game during his college career.  That trend continues today at MUC therefore stats alone don't mean that much to me.

I think we have several talented QB's in the league and we're very fortunate to be able to go out and see them on Weekends. 

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

Rank the MUC QBs since 1993.
Here are mine:
Bochert - Didn't get to see him play (lived in IL at the time) but wish I did.
Ballard - First to win the Ring.  Rocket Arm.  Pro Career.
Smeck - Won Two Rings, continued the tradition.
Bruney - Great because he could run and pass.  How many times did he break teams backs with 50 yd TD runs?
Adamson - Had Moore to help him
Jorris - Another Ring this year might move him up.
Burghardt - Had to share the role with Bruney.

[Mr. Ypsi]

"Bill Borchert...considered to be the greatest QB ever to play D3...."

With all due respect to Mr. Borchert, ever hear of a guy named Kenny Anderson of Augustana?  You know, long NFL career, several times All-Pro, 1981 NFL MVP, etc.  Ring a bell?