FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[CruAlum39]

Not sure if I said this in my previous post...

I just think what he DID was wrong.

I don't want to take away from the job that he has obviously done very well this year.

He made a mistake... I'm sure he regrets it, and I'm sure he's better for it now. 

Isn't that another thing we (coaches/parents) try to teach our kids... don't make the same mistake twice?

[formerraider]

I know I have been strangely silent for most of the playoffs...

Congrats to UWW.  They played a great game (especially Beaver), and just plain beat MUC.  The swing point in the game was the third qtr.  MUC and LK have always been a great halftime adjustment team.  It seemed that was going to be the difference again, but after getting to within 17-14 with a chance to do some more, UWW's defense came up with some stops and was able to keep the lead going to the 4th.

As for VK and his penalty, a lot has been discussed.  I'll add my two cents:  I have NEVER liked Vince.  We are about the same age, and I have known him since we were in High School and we were involved in a community exchange program with kids from Northern Ireland.  I didn't like him then.
Although we didn't go to the same High School, I dated a couple of girls from Alliance High (both cheerleaders), and when I would go see them at games or go to dances with them, I had the opportunity to interact with Vince some more.  Still didn't like him.
I played against him when I was at Capital and he was at MUC.  I didn't like his mouth on the field, or the way he played.  Lots of talk about Garcon's attitude, but Vince was the same way.  It's just that he was a D-lineman so it wasn't as obvious.
I haven't seen nor talked to him since, but from what I saw on Saturday, I would guess he hasn't changed much.  He is an arrogant SOB who, in my opinion, has ridden his father's coattails.  Larry has always been quiet and classy.  Vince, as long as I have known him, never has been.  He's always acted as if he's entitled to stuff, and he was never shy about letting you know who he was.

I hope he learns from his mistake and grows as a coach and a person, but, if he's still throwing temper tantrums 20 years after I first got to know him, something makes me think he won't.  Sure, he had a beef with the call, but you can't go that far onto the field to berate an official.  It's unprofessional.

I sincerely hope that, when LK finally decides to step down as HC, that MUC won't just hand the job to VK just because he is Larry's son, unless he matures a bit more.

I know there are coaches, broadcasters, and former players who read these messages, maybe Vince even does in the off season.  Maybe I'll get a lot of backlash and -k for this.  I don't care.  His antics overshadowed a great game and another outstanding MUC season.

Best of luck to all in the off season.  Looking forward to Cap getting healthy for next year and taking another shot at MUC and getting to the playoffs for the FOURTH straight year (never thought that I would see that 10 years ago).

There are so many problems with what you said, I don't even know where to begin.  Stating that lk has always been quiet and classy would suggest that you knew him when he was young, but then again you are the same as age as vince, so you couldn't have known him then.  You say you didn't like him, when you "interacted" with him at a high school dance?  My guess is that he probably didn't like you either.  big deal!  And his mouth on the field?  If that was the case why didn't you call out BJ Payne and Mark Black too?  Now those guys had a mouth!

My guess is that you are probably jealous of vk, he stole your girlfriend in high school and beat you every time he played you in college.  You'll just have to get over it!

[Knightstalker]

Let me understand this, we should all excuse VK for losing his temper and storming on the field and getting his team penalized 15 yards because he is a young and basically a good guy.  But everyone would be harping on KC Keeler for the same thing ten years later and still hate him.

Also when the game ended and the coaches met to shake hands, LK kind of pulled a Belichek and did not actually look at his opponent while they shook hands, LK was looking in the opposite direction from UWW's coach.

Perception being what it is, VK appears to be an out of control hothead and LK appeared to be arrogant.  I am sure this is actually not true, but it is what I saw and perceived.

[formerraider]

Let me understand this, we should all excuse VK for losing his temper and storming on the field and getting his team penalized 15 yards because he is a young and basically a good guy.  But everyone would be harping on KC Keeler for the same thing ten years later and still hate him.

Also when the game ended and the coaches met to shake hands, LK kind of pulled a Belichek and did not actually look at his opponent while they shook hands, LK was looking in the opposite direction from UWW's coach.

Perception being what it is, VK appears to be an out of control hothead and LK appeared to be arrogant.  I am sure this is actually not true, but it is what I saw and perceived.

Or perhaps what you want to perceive is what you saw!

[Knightstalker]

Let me understand this, we should all excuse VK for losing his temper and storming on the field and getting his team penalized 15 yards because he is a young and basically a good guy.  But everyone would be harping on KC Keeler for the same thing ten years later and still hate him.

Also when the game ended and the coaches met to shake hands, LK kind of pulled a Belichek and did not actually look at his opponent while they shook hands, LK was looking in the opposite direction from UWW's coach.

Perception being what it is, VK appears to be an out of control hothead and LK appeared to be arrogant.  I am sure this is actually not true, but it is what I saw and perceived.

Or perhaps what you want to perceive is what you saw!

And perhaps what OAC fans want to perceive about KC Keeler is what they saw.

[section13raiderfan]

Let us not forget that VK was reacting to what he perceived as the refs doing his team an injustice by ignorring the rules. They did. Beaver hit the QB square in the back, didnt hit any defenders at all, and pushed him into the endzone. As illegal as it gets. The rule is there for a reason. The problem is that the refs see that as a discressionary call...THEIR discression....and that is the crux of the matter.
May I broker a peace settlement? Since nobody will admit their fault in this matter, let me apologize for the parties involved. On behalf of Justin Beaver...I apologize for illegally advancing the runner. For VK, I apologize for the losing of the temper and causing my team a penalty as well as any embarassment. . For the Refs, I save the biggest apology of them all, I apologize for not doing the job of enforcing ALL OF THE RULES as they are written, especially given the magnitude of the game and the national arena we were in. OK, everybody happy now? Justin is forgiven....Merry Xmas Justin .  VK is forgiven also. Merry Xmas Vince. The Refs forgivness is backordered and will arrive sometime after Xmas. Merry Xmas to the Refs also. 

[PimpInTheChat]

JK- I had a chance to read through your Post. Since that gives me about as much interaction with you as you've had with VK, I concluded this. I don't like you. I've never liked you.

You almost had me convinced, since you had dated a couple cheerleaders, but then I realized that I dated a couple of those cheerleaders also...you call them cheerleaders, I call them slumpbusters. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself.

I'm guessing that you didn't confront VK then about how you disliked him, and now you feel it's a good time to Pile on. That is just weak.

You didn't like him on the field? You mean getting punched in the mouth by Mount every year didn't make you stand up and say...Wow that was nice, thank you may I have another. You don't have to bring out the Sour grapes now.

There are a lot of players that I played with or against and did not like on the field....of course that was Highschool...and shortly thereafter I realized that people are much different when they are on your team. So I can see where you could make the comments you made. You don't know VK, you just don't like him thanks to the Beat downs you took while at capital and the Cheerleaders he took from you at Alliance.

I don't have to defend VK, his record speaks for itself. He did a great job this year. The only thing that he has been handed was his A** after his outbreak at the Stagg. But it's a learning experience. Hopefully the Team can learn as well...Maybe they will learn that Talent doesn't win championships, Heart does.

[Frank Rossi]

Since nobody has appropriately quoted the rule, here it is from the NCAA Handbook:

----------------------

RULE 9

Conduct of Players and Others Subject to Rules

SECTION 3. Blocking, Use of Hands or Arms

Who May Block

ARTICLE 1. Players of either team may block opponents, provided it is not forward-pass interference, interference with the opportunity to catch a kick or a personal foul (Exception: Rule 6-1-2-h).

Interfering for or Helping the Runner or Passer

ARTICLE 2. a. The runner or passer may use his hand or arm to ward off or push opponents.

b. The runner shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team shall grasp, push, lift or charge into him to assist him in forward progress.

c. Teammates of the runner or passer may interfere for him by blocking but shall not use interlocked interference by grasping or encircling one another in any manner while contacting an opponent.

----------------------

The Rule in question is Rule 9-3-2-b.  Also, remember -- and I have not seen the replay since I was on the sideline Saturday -- if the QB scored the TD before any assist, then there's no foul.  That might have been the ruling because of how fast a QB sneak transpires.  Finally, the wording of the rule denotes intent ("to assist him"), so there IS a discretionary aspect to the call. 

My point here is that there are angles of the play that I haven't seen addressed here or that I've seen addressed here without much factual support. 

[Toph]

Since nobody has appropriately quoted the rule, here it is from the NCAA Handbook:

----------------------

RULE 9

Conduct of Players and Others Subject to Rules

SECTION 3. Blocking, Use of Hands or Arms

Who May Block

ARTICLE 1. Players of either team may block opponents, provided it is not forward-pass interference, interference with the opportunity to catch a kick or a personal foul (Exception: Rule 6-1-2-h).

Interfering for or Helping the Runner or Passer

ARTICLE 2. a. The runner or passer may use his hand or arm to ward off or push opponents.

b. The runner shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team shall grasp, push, lift or charge into him to assist him in forward progress.

c. Teammates of the runner or passer may interfere for him by blocking but shall not use interlocked interference by grasping or encircling one another in any manner while contacting an opponent.

----------------------

The Rule in question is Rule 9-3-2-b.  Also, remember -- and I have not seen the replay since I was on the sideline Saturday -- if the QB scored the TD before any assist, then there's no foul.  That might have been the ruling because of how fast a QB sneak transpires.  Finally, the wording of the rule denotes intent ("to assist him"), so there IS a discretionary aspect to the call. 

My point here is that there are angles of the play that I haven't seen addressed here or that I've seen addressed here without much factual support. 

It looked to me that the QB wasn't over until the Beav pushed him in, and his intent (arms extended into the QB) was certainly clear, but it's over and done with.  Question:  Would it have been legal, then, to run a fake field goal to Katie Hnida, and carry HER over the goal line?  The rule only states that it is illegal to assist men.

Wisconsin-Whitewater wins, Mount loses.  VK got a personal foul, and is a horrible human being. Whitewater fans thought Mount Union fans were jerks, Mount Union fans thought Whitewater fans were jerks, some folks had nothing but good things to say about their entire Salem experience.  Mount's dynasty is dead.  Mount's dynasty is not dead, this happens every time they lose a game.  Whitewater still gets no respect.

Does that about sum up the activity on the board for the past few days?  Let's move on.

[skunks_sidekick]

Not quite Toph.........you forgot.

Larry Kehres is just another KC Keeler.........oh wait...that can't be right because KC Keeler is just "misunderstood".   

[stealth]

They also forgot that the ref's for the most part let both sides play and decide the outcome on the feild. Nobody is ranting about #1 blatant push off on WW cornerback. Just a little sampling. I for one am glad it was a battle of the titans not a battel of the yellow flags. 

Not quite Toph.........you forgot.

Larry Kehres is just another KC Keeler.........oh wait...that can't be right because KC Keeler is just "misunderstood".   

[phil]

I have a quick question since this subject just won't go away...
Can anybody recall and inform us about the last time they saw rule 9-3-2-b called on any level of college football?

As for VK's excursion and resulting personal foul... we've seen every possible comment - from character assassination to condoning his reaction. While it's probably been totally blown out of proportion at this point - the excuse that you need to forgive him because he's a young coach who's still learning is absolute hogwash. He's 31 years old. Let me know what corporations give performance reviews which give passes to 31 year old men who make on the job mistakes because they're "young". Google, Haliburton, AT&T, GE, Merck, Citibank.. ? Just let me know so I might polish my resume.

BTW, Keeler definitely found the right division for his talents as he managed to look good on ESPN while the Appalachian State players and fans conducted themselves like they've never been there before.

[Small but Slow]

I doubt the no-call for aiding the runner was the true catalyst for the temporary lack of good judgement exercised.  Does anyone recall any offensive holding penalties against either team?  Our defensive front got pushed around and it looked as though a time or two a flag could have been thrown for a hold.  Not saying it didn't go both ways by any means, just UWW's running game benefitted more from it because they kept running up the gut.  I would have like to have seen more Kmic quick hitters from the pro two back set myself, but what do I know.

[JT]

From what I saw on TV the refs let a lot of stuff go for both teams.  Benefits for both teams.  All-in-all I don't think it impacted the outcome much. UWW was on, on Saturday, and Mount was a little off.

[section13raiderfan]

From what I saw on TV the refs let a lot of stuff go for both teams.  Benefits for both teams.  All-in-all I don't think it impacted the outcome much. UWW was on, on Saturday, and Mount was a little off.

Some refs wont call a penalty unless it directly affects the outcome of the play. Understandable. But still wrong.  Its a matter of style. Also wrong. Exactly what are the standards? Seems you never know until the game is under way. Again wrong, but what are you gonna do? I would love to hear from the horses mouth what was seen and when. Fat chance! Bottom line....UWW was on and MUC wasnt. Game over.