FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

[rscl70]

Since nobody has appropriately quoted the rule, here it is from the NCAA Handbook:

----------------------

RULE 9

Conduct of Players and Others Subject to Rules

SECTION 3. Blocking, Use of Hands or Arms

Who May Block

ARTICLE 1. Players of either team may block opponents, provided it is not forward-pass interference, interference with the opportunity to catch a kick or a personal foul (Exception: Rule 6-1-2-h).

Interfering for or Helping the Runner or Passer

ARTICLE 2. a. The runner or passer may use his hand or arm to ward off or push opponents.

b. The runner shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team shall grasp, push, lift or charge into him to assist him in forward progress.
c. Teammates of the runner or passer may interfere for him by blocking but shall not use interlocked interference by grasping or encircling one another in any manner while contacting an opponent.

----------------------

The Rule in question is Rule 9-3-2-b.  Also, remember -- and I have not seen the replay since I was on the sideline Saturday -- if the QB scored the TD before any assist, then there's no foul.  That might have been the ruling because of how fast a QB sneak transpires.  Finally, the wording of the rule denotes intent ("to assist him"), so there IS a discretionary aspect to the call. 

My point here is that there are angles of the play that I haven't seen addressed here or that I've seen addressed here without much factual support. 

Yesterday I watched the game on tape, hoping it would end differently.  It did not.
I replayed that last touchdown in slow motion several times and it sure looks to me like Jones is falling backwords when Beaver plants a shoulder in his back, wraps his arms around him and propels him into the endzone.  This was not a simple case of "pushing the pile."  I understand why Vince was so angry.  It was flagrent and should have been called.

Having said that, I will also say that I don't believe it would have made a difference in the outcome.  In my opinion Whitewater would still have won the game.

[Redtooth]

Let us not forget that VK was reacting to what he perceived as the refs doing his team an injustice by ignorring the rules. They did. Beaver hit the QB square in the back, didnt hit any defenders at all, and pushed him into the endzone. As illegal as it gets. The rule is there for a reason. The problem is that the refs see that as a discressionary call...THEIR discression....and that is the crux of the matter.
May I broker a peace settlement? Since nobody will admit their fault in this matter, let me apologize for the parties involved. On behalf of Justin Beaver...I apologize for illegally advancing the runner. For VK, I apologize for the losing of the temper and causing my team a penalty as well as any embarassment. . For the Refs, I save the biggest apology of them all, I apologize for not doing the job of enforcing ALL OF THE RULES as they are written, especially given the magnitude of the game and the national arena we were in. OK, everybody happy now? Justin is forgiven....Merry Xmas Justin .  VK is forgiven also. Merry Xmas Vince. The Refs forgivness is backordered and will arrive sometime after Xmas. Merry Xmas to the Refs also. 

I posted the following on the MIAC Board yesterday in fun, but to clarify the situation of the push:

Found indisputable photo evidence that "the Beaver" had little to do with the TD push....

http://www.pictureprints.net/albums.php?gallery=1986&photo=1370


Beaver is clearly watching Jones get the push from someone up front 

[stealth]

If you slow motioned the entire game you probably would get a tremendous amount of  flagrant and not so flagrant penalties on both sides.  If everything was to be done according to the rule mongers that have polluted the discussion of who won and who lost,  the game would have taken two days to play and you would have had to have replacement refs come in due to strained shoulders. I for one was ready to get out of the cold. It was a great game and both squads played the best they could that night as the refs did the best they could. If you want proof of how the officals tried to do the best they could look at how many replays there were,  plently. Give it a rest.  

Since nobody has appropriately quoted the rule, here it is from the NCAA Handbook:

----------------------

RULE 9

Conduct of Players and Others Subject to Rules

SECTION 3. Blocking, Use of Hands or Arms

Who May Block

ARTICLE 1. Players of either team may block opponents, provided it is not forward-pass interference, interference with the opportunity to catch a kick or a personal foul (Exception: Rule 6-1-2-h).

Interfering for or Helping the Runner or Passer

ARTICLE 2. a. The runner or passer may use his hand or arm to ward off or push opponents.

b. The runner shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team shall grasp, push, lift or charge into him to assist him in forward progress.
c. Teammates of the runner or passer may interfere for him by blocking but shall not use interlocked interference by grasping or encircling one another in any manner while contacting an opponent.

----------------------

The Rule in question is Rule 9-3-2-b.  Also, remember -- and I have not seen the replay since I was on the sideline Saturday -- if the QB scored the TD before any assist, then there's no foul.  That might have been the ruling because of how fast a QB sneak transpires.  Finally, the wording of the rule denotes intent ("to assist him"), so there IS a discretionary aspect to the call. 

My point here is that there are angles of the play that I haven't seen addressed here or that I've seen addressed here without much factual support. 

Yesterday I watched the game on tape, hoping it would end differently.  It did not.
I replayed that last touchdown in slow motion several times and it sure looks to me like Jones is falling backwords when Beaver plants a shoulder in his back, wraps his arms around him and propels him into the endzone.  This was not a simple case of "pushing the pile."  I understand why Vince was so angry.  It was flagrent and should have been called.

Having said that, I will also say that I don't believe it would have made a difference in the outcome.  In my opinion Whitewater would still have won the game.

[stealth]

I count 4 flagrant fouls in the pile and no flags what the hell is wrong with the refs  Most importantly where is Waldo in the pile ?

Let us not forget that VK was reacting to what he perceived as the refs doing his team an injustice by ignorring the rules. They did. Beaver hit the QB square in the back, didnt hit any defenders at all, and pushed him into the endzone. As illegal as it gets. The rule is there for a reason. The problem is that the refs see that as a discressionary call...THEIR discression....and that is the crux of the matter.
May I broker a peace settlement? Since nobody will admit their fault in this matter, let me apologize for the parties involved. On behalf of Justin Beaver...I apologize for illegally advancing the runner. For VK, I apologize for the losing of the temper and causing my team a penalty as well as any embarassment. . For the Refs, I save the biggest apology of them all, I apologize for not doing the job of enforcing ALL OF THE RULES as they are written, especially given the magnitude of the game and the national arena we were in. OK, everybody happy now? Justin is forgiven....Merry Xmas Justin .  VK is forgiven also. Merry Xmas Vince. The Refs forgivness is backordered and will arrive sometime after Xmas. Merry Xmas to the Refs also. 

I posted the following on the MIAC Board yesterday in fun, but to clarify the situation of the push:

Found indisputable photo evidence that "the Beaver" had little to do with the TD push....

http://www.pictureprints.net/albums.php?gallery=1986&photo=1370


Beaver is clearly watching Jones get the push from someone up front 

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

Let us not forget that VK was reacting to what he perceived as the refs doing his team an injustice by ignorring the rules. They did. Beaver hit the QB square in the back, didnt hit any defenders at all, and pushed him into the endzone. As illegal as it gets. The rule is there for a reason. The problem is that the refs see that as a discressionary call...THEIR discression....and that is the crux of the matter.
May I broker a peace settlement? Since nobody will admit their fault in this matter, let me apologize for the parties involved. On behalf of Justin Beaver...I apologize for illegally advancing the runner. For VK, I apologize for the losing of the temper and causing my team a penalty as well as any embarassment. . For the Refs, I save the biggest apology of them all, I apologize for not doing the job of enforcing ALL OF THE RULES as they are written, especially given the magnitude of the game and the national arena we were in. OK, everybody happy now? Justin is forgiven....Merry Xmas Justin .  VK is forgiven also. Merry Xmas Vince. The Refs forgivness is backordered and will arrive sometime after Xmas. Merry Xmas to the Refs also. 

I posted the following on the MIAC Board yesterday in fun, but to clarify the situation of the push:

Found indisputable photo evidence that "the Beaver" had little to do with the TD push....

http://www.pictureprints.net/albums.php?gallery=1986&photo=1370


Beaver is clearly watching Jones get the push from someone up front 

What proof do you have that this is the final drive?  I don't see a timestamp on that photo. 

Anyways, if it is the final UWW TD, Jones took the initial snap, tried to go in, was pushed back, then made another effort on the left side of the line when Beaver then pushed him.  This appears to be right after the initial snap, prior to the initial stop.

Even if MTU stops them, they have to go the entire field to tie or go for the win.  Not impossibile, but it would have been nice to see them try.

[runyr]

I know I have been strangely silent for most of the playoffs...

Congrats to UWW.  They played a great game (especially Beaver), and just plain beat MUC.  The swing point in the game was the third qtr.  MUC and LK have always been a great halftime adjustment team.  It seemed that was going to be the difference again, but after getting to within 17-14 with a chance to do some more, UWW's defense came up with some stops and was able to keep the lead going to the 4th.

As for VK and his penalty, a lot has been discussed.  I'll add my two cents:  I have NEVER liked Vince.  We are about the same age, and I have known him since we were in High School and we were involved in a community exchange program with kids from Northern Ireland.  I didn't like him then.
Although we didn't go to the same High School, I dated a couple of girls from Alliance High (both cheerleaders), and when I would go see them at games or go to dances with them, I had the opportunity to interact with Vince some more.  Still didn't like him.
I played against him when I was at Capital and he was at MUC.  I didn't like his mouth on the field, or the way he played.  Lots of talk about Garcon's attitude, but Vince was the same way.  It's just that he was a D-lineman so it wasn't as obvious.
I haven't seen nor talked to him since, but from what I saw on Saturday, I would guess he hasn't changed much.  He is an arrogant SOB who, in my opinion, has ridden his father's coattails.  Larry has always been quiet and classy.  Vince, as long as I have known him, never has been.  He's always acted as if he's entitled to stuff, and he was never shy about letting you know who he was.

I hope he learns from his mistake and grows as a coach and a person, but, if he's still throwing temper tantrums 20 years after I first got to know him, something makes me think he won't.  Sure, he had a beef with the call, but you can't go that far onto the field to berate an official.  It's unprofessional.

I sincerely hope that, when LK finally decides to step down as HC, that MUC won't just hand the job to VK just because he is Larry's son, unless he matures a bit more.

I know there are coaches, broadcasters, and former players who read these messages, maybe Vince even does in the off season.  Maybe I'll get a lot of backlash and -k for this.  I don't care.  His antics overshadowed a great game and another outstanding MUC season.

Best of luck to all in the off season.  Looking forward to Cap getting healthy for next year and taking another shot at MUC and getting to the playoffs for the FOURTH straight year (never thought that I would see that 10 years ago).

There are so many problems with what you said, I don't even know where to begin.  Stating that lk has always been quiet and classy would suggest that you knew him when he was young, but then again you are the same as age as vince, so you couldn't have known him then.  You say you didn't like him, when you "interacted" with him at a high school dance?  My guess is that he probably didn't like you either.  big deal!  And his mouth on the field?  If that was the case why didn't you call out BJ Payne and Mark Black too?  Now those guys had a mouth!

My guess is that you are probably jealous of vk, he stole your girlfriend in high school and beat you every time he played you in college.  You'll just have to get over it!

Quite a guess!    For sure something been festering a long time. 

[runyr]

Not quite Toph.........you forgot.

Larry Kehres is just another KC Keeler.........oh wait...that can't be right because KC Keeler is just "misunderstood".   

+k 

[JK]

There are so many problems with what you said, I don't even know where to begin.  Stating that lk has always been quiet and classy would suggest that you knew him when he was young, but then again you are the same as age as vince, so you couldn't have known him then. 

OK, in the true literal sense, that would be the case...if you want to argue semantics.  I guess to word it properly, I should say that every time I had the opportunity to talk to LK, he has been quiet and classy.  No wait, that's not right either, because that doesn't account for the time that I wasn't speaking to him, so that COULDN'T be ALWAYS, now could it.  I guess I would have to reword it to say that "Despite growing up in the Alliance area, with a mother who has been involved with MUC since she graduated in LK's class in 1971 and a father who was a local football coach, it would SEEM that LK is quiet and classy, though I may be wrong, since I can't definitively say how he is ALL THE TIME."  Perhaps I should have been more clear, but I didn't think I needed to spell it out in crayon for you.  Sheesh, I didn't think anyone would get so upset about a compliment of LK.

You say you didn't like him, when you "interacted" with him at a high school dance?  My guess is that he probably didn't like you either.  big deal! 

If we want to get very particular, I didn't say "A" HS Dance, I said "a couple," but that is neither here nor there.  The point is that rather than just saying I didn't or don't like VK and having my credibility attacked for "not knowing him," I thought I would give some background as to why I didn't/don't like Vince.  I don't know/ care if Vince ever liked me or if he likes or dislikes me right now.  I'm sure he doesn't lose sleep over it.  I know I don't.  He has been successful in what he wants to do and I have been successful in my chosen path as well.  I have a great wife and an 18 month old son.  His wife, Lindsey, is a great girl (I know her from HS/ college as well).  I am pretty sure Vince cares what I think about him as much as I care about what he thinks about me...ZERO.  So, you are right, big deal!

And his mouth on the field?  If that was the case why didn't you call out BJ Payne and Mark Black too?  Now those guys had a mouth!

OK, If you want me too.  Both were smack talking jerks on the field, but they were two of the best I ever played against.  Vince wasn't even in the top 10.  Besides, this isn't about them, so why bring them up?

My guess is that you are probably jealous of vk, he stole your girlfriend in high school and beat you every time he played you in college.  You'll just have to get over it!

I'm not jealous of VK.  I'm jealous that he is still involved in the game I love so much and I am not so much anymore, but not of any of the other stuff.  Sure, MUC whipped our azzes every time we played them.  I fully expected that, though.  I mean, I always played to win, and believed we could, but I was also a realist, and reality was that we weren't very good at Cap and MUC was.  You don't have to go to an NCAC school to add that up.  And by the way, neither girl from Alliance that I dated liked Vince much either, so I sincerely doubt that he stole my girlfriend.  If he did, oh well.  I didn't marry either one, so it's not like I am getting "seconds."

All this said, I understand the emotions.  Did Vince have a legit beef with the non-call?  Maybe.  Did he need to throw a hissy fit?  NO.  Did his 15 yarder impact the outcome of the game?  NO, but that doesn't excuse it.

To prove to you that I am over it, I have changed my mind.  I do hope Vince becomes the HC at MUC one day.  I know you can't be a successful DC without doing the work, and everyone is entitled to their own successes.  Doesn't mean I have to like the guy.

I said in my original post that I didn't care what the backlash was for my comments.  I still don't.  I thought Vince was an arrogant, always wanted to get his way, and didn't know how to react if he didn't.  I know it was one on-field blowup in a big game, but it seems from that, to still be the same.

[nike]

A great victory for Whitewater. But after looking at the videotape of the last touchtown again and again,  I think we must cut young Kehres some slack.  I have never seen a back, in this case Jones, wrapped up by a team mate  and dragged into the end zone so obviously.  He was tackled into the end zone by one of his mates on the left side of the line after Mount had stopped him over left guard, but did not get him down.   I honestly do not think Jones would have scored on that without the help. And it was NOT Beaver who did it, as he comes into the picture after the score.  Also, the announcers never had a clue about what VK was so upset about.  Was VK wrong? Yes. But it was Mount's last gasp. He was worked up and I can see why now.  It is much more obvious now than when we were watching the game. But, alas, the game is over.  And I am spreading the ballad of Justin Beaver.  I So hope two of my kin go to Woo next fall.

[JK]

JK- I had a chance to read through your Post. Since that gives me about as much interaction with you as you've had with VK, I concluded this. I don't like you. I've never liked you.

You almost had me convinced, since you had dated a couple cheerleaders, but then I realized that I dated a couple of those cheerleaders also...you call them cheerleaders, I call them slumpbusters. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself.

I'm guessing that you didn't confront VK then about how you disliked him, and now you feel it's a good time to Pile on. That is just weak.

You didn't like him on the field? You mean getting punched in the mouth by Mount every year didn't make you stand up and say...Wow that was nice, thank you may I have another. You don't have to bring out the Sour grapes now.

There are a lot of players that I played with or against and did not like on the field....of course that was Highschool...and shortly thereafter I realized that people are much different when they are on your team. So I can see where you could make the comments you made. You don't know VK, you just don't like him thanks to the Beat downs you took while at capital and the Cheerleaders he took from you at Alliance.

I don't have to defend VK, his record speaks for itself. He did a great job this year. The only thing that he has been handed was his A** after his outbreak at the Stagg. But it's a learning experience. Hopefully the Team can learn as well...Maybe they will learn that Talent doesn't win championships, Heart does.

OK, clone.  Actually, good use of the word "Slumpbuster."  I took what I could get back then...and they had great personalities.

Actually, pimp, I never really liked you either.  Not at Marlington, not at MUC.  But, you aren't the one melting down on national TV to sully the class reputation of a great program... a program you helped build.  If you have no issue with that, then perhaps I shouldn't either.

I've always made it clear to Vince that I didn't care too much for him.  I don't think he cared then or he cares now.  I don't care if he cares.  I'm not piling on, I'm not bringing out sour grapes.  All I was saying is that I have known Vince for a while and I don't like him and that I wasn't surprised he flipped out.  I have never brought it up before in this forum because I didn't see the need to, not sure what purpose it would have served other than to invite personal attacks, which I certainly have gotten today.

I'm too tired to rehash all the rest of it.  Read my previous post to formerraider.  Interesting, however, that not one but two of you had to break out the "I bet he stole your girlfriend in high school" bit. 

You are right, though, I don't know him as well as you or the guys he played with.  I would stick up for my old teammates at WB or at Cap as well, and, despite my best efforts, if you didn't like them then and hadn't seen nor heard anything to change your mind over the last 10 years or so, no matter what I said it probably wouldn't change your mind.

On this point I will not disagree with you or anyone...VK HAS done a great job with the MUC defense.  I never said he didn't.  They were as dominant a squad as I have ever seen at this level.

Lets be clear.  I don't wish him ill.  I don't want his friends and former teammates to stop liking him because I don't.  If I got to sit down with him and really talk and find out that he really is a good guy, I probably would.  I hope he is a great husband, father, and football coach.  I am sure he is a great friend to those who are his friends, you included.

Like your hero Jim Rome says"I'm out."

[reality check]

http://www.pictureprints.net/albums.php?gallery=1986&photo=1370

Beaver is clearly watching Jones get the push from someone up front 

Just because beating dead horses is so easy and fun...

According to that picture, Beaver may indeed be innocent.  But the wrap and push is clear and evident and from what I can see in the photo.  It's clear the "pusher" is wearing a jersey ending in "6" and it appears to be #36 to me.  That would be a Sophomore FB.  I thought it might be #76 (a starting lineman) but I can see #76 face-down on the ground.  A tight end (#86)?  Unlikely as 86 is a frosh who hasn't seen the field.  I've looked over the roster and can only come up with #36 as a likely candidate.  So we can potentially avoid any further accusations of a "Beaver bullrush" and can possibly point the finger at Max Wasikowski?  For all you guys who have watched it over and over again on Tivo or DVR, is it indeed the FB or sneaky Beaver?




JK

FWIW, I think based on the background you gave us, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion and I respect your reasons for disliking VK.  I don't really care for VK either but I just based my opinion on the fact that I think he looks like kinda like a jerk in his coaching profile picture.  So your opinion is clearly more developed than mine but I think we're both right on the money.  All that said, he did a heckuva job with the Raider Defense.

[wildcat11]

Catdomealumni.com special: 2007 Stagg Bowl Recap

2007 Stagg Bowl

[HScoach]

.....I don't really care for VK either but I just based my opinion on the fact that I think he looks like kinda like a jerk in his coaching profile picture. 

That's OK.   I don't like him because he's taller than me.  And 250 looks a lot better on 6-3 than it does 5-10

Which is why I hang around with The Ric

[HScoach]

On the issue of "The Beaver Push", can we just drop this?  Yes, it was against the rules, but it is NEVER called. 

This non-call had ZERO to do with the Mount loss.  They lost because UWW recovered their own fumble for a TD and then forced MUC fumbles when Mount drove into their territory.  Ballgame.

[raiderfan1983]

hscoach,
Couldn't agree more... Mount had trouble moving the ball all day against UWW's D.  It is unreasonable to think that Mount would've been able to go 99 yards in the final drive to score the game winner.  The loss came from turnovers and an inability to capitalize on key plays (like fourth down on the first drive and the fumble in the endoze).  It is very rare that you can place direct blame on the refs for a loss, and this is certainly not a case where one team can say "The refs beat us today."  UWW played a better game and deserved to win the national championship.