Future of Division III

[sac]

Something to keep in mind with regards to the Great Lakes area schools is the Great Lakes Colleges Association.

Its comprised of.......
Albion College
Antioch College
Denison University
DePauw University
Earlham College
Hope College
Kalamazoo College
Kenyon College
Oberlin College
Ohio Wesleyan University
Wabash College
The College of Wooster

These colleges make up good chunks of the MIAA and NCAC.  Philosophically I believe they would all move together.  Its not inconceivable that a split could occur within these conferences along the lines of affiliation with this association.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Something to keep in mind with regards to the Great Lakes area schools is the Great Lakes Colleges Association.

Its comprised of.......
Albion College
Antioch College
Denison University
DePauw University
Earlham College
Hope College
Kalamazoo College
Kenyon College
Oberlin College
Ohio Wesleyan University
Wabash College
The College of Wooster

These colleges make up good junks of the MIAA and NCAC.  Philosophically I believe they would all move together.  Its not inconceivable that a split could occur within these conferences along the lines of affiliation with this association.

Woe unto you if a Calvin poster ever finds THAT typo!   (I suppose a Witt supporter might run with it too, but that's not your problem. )

[sac]

Actually Mr. Y, Calvin and Wittenberg are not members of the GLCA.

http://www.glca.org/Member%20Colleges/

[Ralph Turner]

But the Director's Cup is independent of the NCAA. If one doesn't approve of the Director's Cup scoring, one can always create an XYZ Cup with a different and acceptable scoring system but without the difficulties of changing the NCAA.

One of these days, when I have more time, and don't make any more excuses, I want to multiply the Director's Cup scoring by a "participation coefficient".  The Participation Co-efficient will the the percentage of full NCAA memberships who participate in a particular sport.

[David Collinge]

Something to keep in mind with regards to the Great Lakes area schools is the Great Lakes Colleges Association.

Its comprised of.......
Albion College
Antioch College
Denison University
DePauw University
Earlham College
Hope College
Kalamazoo College
Kenyon College
Oberlin College
Ohio Wesleyan University
Wabash College
The College of Wooster

These colleges make up good chunks of the MIAA and NCAC.  Philosophically I believe they would all move together.  Its not inconceivable that a split could occur within these conferences along the lines of affiliation with this association.

Antioch has no (school-sponsored) intercollegiate sports.

I remain confident that the NCAC will stay or move as a group, Wittenberg included (as well as Allegheny and, probably, Hiram).  However I have heard rumors that, while there seems to be solidarity among the NCAC presidents, there is some amount of opposition among NCAC coaches, and not all of them will go along for the trip to D4.

[joepieters]

Great find by Li'l Giant concerning the "split" by VP from (CCIW) Augustana and a response by the President of Earlham (NCAC).

+1! 

A must read from insidehighered.com!

Please click on Li'l Giant's post.

I disagree with the article on two points:

First, the preception issue of a change to Div IV: if these conferences are transfering from one division to another en masse (and obviously that is still an open issue), and college X plays the same ten colleges in Div IV as it did in Div III, I would think that that would be more important to a recruit than the fact that the Division is now called Div IV.

Second, the author metions that the recruit whose burning desire is for athletics won't come to a Div IV school.  But it seems to me that a student who is looking at Div III schools does not have athletics as his or her sole burning desire in the first place, so to say that that recruit which has athletics as his sole desire won't look at a Div IV schools is a non issue since he or she was not going to look at those Div III or Div IV schools in the first place.

[cush]

"Interesting that the SCAC and NCAC would be divergent, and that the NESCAC and WIAC would be left in D-4, which seems odd."


My view is i would be shocked if the scac doesn't follow the ncac + other like minded school's to d4, regardless of the notion that it might be a slot below on the athletic side. What i think is happening is the fancy academic school's want to play in their own spot, ie this whole split thing has more to do with the academic birds of a feather going together. I also suspect the NAIA is in big trouble,  add those school's to the d3 pool and it brings in a very diverse set of school's and it gets too crowded for some.

[Ralph Turner]

"Interesting that the SCAC and NCAC would be divergent, and that the NESCAC and WIAC would be left in D-4, which seems odd."


My view is i would be shocked if the scac doesn't follow the ncac + other like minded school's to d4, regardless of the notion that it might be a slot below on the athletic side. What i think is happening is the fancy academic school's want to play in their own spot, ie this whole split thing has more to do with the academic birds of a feather going together. I also suspect the NAIA is in big trouble,  add those school's to the d3 pool and it brings in a very diverse set of school's and it gets too crowded for some.

Cush, the background document that I cite in post # 1084 does not have the SCAC  moving to the new grouping under any of the more restrictive criteria.

Please review those pages of the presentation. 

[smedindy]

Ralph -

However, wouldn't it make sense that some of the SCAC would want to move. I can't imagine DePauw not moving to fit with Wabash, and other schools fit the NESCAC / NCAC model as well.

[David Collinge]

Ralph -

However, wouldn't it make sense that some of the SCAC would want to move. I can't imagine DePauw not moving to fit with Wabash, and other schools fit the NESCAC / NCAC model as well.

There are cases where traditional rivalries have survived the schools being in different organizations or divisions.  Centre/Berea and Wittenberg/Cedarville come to mind.  However, I think you're right about DPU, whose ties to Wabash seem to be at least as strong as those to the SCAC.

[Ralph Turner]

Ralph -

However, wouldn't it make sense that some of the SCAC would want to move. I can't imagine DePauw not moving to fit with Wabash, and other schools fit the NESCAC / NCAC model as well.

smed, this may be some of the wailing and gnashing of teeth as this proposal rips some conferences apart.

[Ralph Turner]

Ralph -

However, wouldn't it make sense that some of the SCAC would want to move. I can't imagine DePauw not moving to fit with Wabash, and other schools fit the NESCAC / NCAC model as well.

smed, this may be some of the wailing and gnashing of teeth as this proposal rips some conferences apart.

There have been some of the more "restrictive" members who frown upon D-1 Lacrosse at JHU (Centennial) , or D-1 Ice Hockey and D-1 women's soccer at Colorado College (SCAC).  Is that a deal-breaker in the new grouping?

The Austin College (SCAC) web site is down so I cannot count sports, but they only had 11 back in the ASC.

Oglethorpe (SCAC) needs to add two sports, or is their 784-student enrollment what the guidelines allow as an exception to the policy?

I guess these questions are the better examples of the machinations and negotiations that will be employed by those schools wanting this legislation going thru, and the adoption of the guidelines that will make sure that their friends will qualify to make the invitation list.

[Warren Thompson]

Ralph -

However, wouldn't it make sense that some of the SCAC would want to move. I can't imagine DePauw not moving to fit with Wabash, and other schools fit the NESCAC / NCAC model as well.

smed, this may be some of the wailing and gnashing of teeth as this proposal rips some conferences apart.

There have been some of the more "restrictive" members who frown upon D-1 Lacrosse at JHU (Centennial) , or D-1 Ice Hockey and D-1 women's soccer at Colorado College (SCAC).  Is that a deal-breaker in the new grouping?

The Austin College (SCAC) web site is down so I cannot count sports, but they only had 11 back in the ASC.

Oglethorpe (SCAC) needs to add two sports, or is their 784-student enrollment what the guidelines allow as an exception to the policy?

Thus, the future of D3 is now pretty much up in the air (is there something else at play here?). Those in the know kindly chime in here.

[Ralph Turner]

Yes, it certainly is!

I strongly encourage fans to view the power point presentation and watch the video clips (about 40 minutes total running time) to comprehend what this means.

I understand the problem.  D-III is getting "too" big to have a 64-team tourney at the 1:6.5 playoff ratio.  The 3.18% share of the NCAA pie seems unlikely to get bigger, and the 11-year television contract for sports other than football is coming up re-negotiation in the foreseeable future.

Just as I can see the NCAC pushing for more restrictive limits in D-IV, I can imagine some "more lenient" legislation from the other side hitting D-III.

[old ends]

I think DIV III will still be around, but in a different format. Some of the Conferennces will change and some of the schools.

Years ago when schools dropped out of DIV I and went to I-AA people thought that the I-AA would never get going. Well they just had a championship and some of the former members are now DIV I schools.

This can only make DIV III stronger and competition stronger. It is going to make waves and maybe stop long running rivalries. It will be interesting to see how this all shakes down.